Snakes.....errr........Guns On A Plane

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d110:H.R.3305:

Proposed immediately after the September 11, 2001, attacks, permits pilots and navigators of aircraft, and law enforcement personnel detailed to aircraft, to carry firearms.

Oh noes.........the travesty!!!!!!!

Especially letting this terrorist nut job have a gun on the plane.

http://travel.usatoday.com/flights/post/2012/03/jetblue-flight-diverts-to-amarillo-after-pilot-acts-crazy/657653/1



Is this proof that nobody should have a gun on the plane, that only qualified people should have guns on a plane, or that guns on a plane already exist (even in less than qualified individuals hands) and that not a lot has really come from it?

I don't know......but it's fun to think about. Assuming you partake in that kind of a hobby.

Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 2:30:03 PM

A couple things. The guy didn't have a gun. So your title was misleading. 2nd should trained US soldiers not have guns because once in a while a grunt decides to frag his LT like SS.

You are making huge leaps in Logic that frankly don't make sense. I'm fine with every pilot having a gun. If they wanted to kill folks they can already crash the aircraft.

Oh and this story is OLD news.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 9/14/2012 2:48:09 PM

_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
A couple things.

then shoot......but not literally.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
The guy didn't have a gun. So your title was misleading.

That is true......but a nut like this could have legally had a gun under this law.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
2nd should trained US soldiers not have guns because once in a while a grunt decides to frag his LT like SS.

Exactly my point.......exactly my position.....except applied to more people.

And the answer to that is apparently yes......hence the reason we have unarmed troops allegedly defending embassies in the middle of a Middle Eastern shit hole right now.

It's entirely irrational.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
You are making huge leaps in Logic that frankly don't make sense. I'm fine with every pilot having a gun. If they wanted to kill folks they can already crash the aircraft.

Exactly.......and if passengers wanted to kill people they could shoot people, more people, more densely concentrated, in the terminal.

My logic is sound, it's just not being inconsistently applied.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Oh and this story is OLD news.

Both are......but the story seems to have the Justice League all up and excited in multiple other threads, so I thought it would be best to consolidate a single thread about it.

The only semi rational argument about not wanting more people to have a gun on a plane is that it would become easier to hijack it with a gun, but if everyone had a gun, then it would go back down to being harder to hijack.

One of the biggest reasons gun massacres are so prevalent in "No Gun Zones" is because law abiding people simply can't defend themselves. That's why you never see successful massacres at a gun range or a police station. You get to shoot about one person before you become a walking pin cushion.

As for it being scary to get into a gun fight on an airplane.......well that is true. It is a scary idea, but scary ideas don't always make for sound legal legislation.



Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 3:07:27 PM

Except your logic isn't sound. We shouldn't be a le to carry a loaded gun on a plane. If two people get into an argument at Church's Chicken over which rapper is better and start to shoot at each other they might hit someone else in the crossfire. In a pressurized plane you would kill everyone if a shot went thru the cabin.

And since private business can determine if you cannot have a gun on their property just like you can in your home, your lack of this basic understanding is a little scary



_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Except your logic isn't sound.

It's sound......even if you choose not to like it.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
We shouldn't be a le to carry a loaded gun on a plane. If two people get into an argument at Church's Chicken over which rapper is better and start to shoot at each other they might hit someone else in the crossfire.

So because some people make bad decisions.....we need to make laws that cater towards and punishes everyone for those few bad decisions?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/nyregion/bystanders-shooting-wounds-caused-by-the-police.html?pagewanted=all&_moc.semityn.www

Like this? So should cops not be able to engage in a gun battle if bystanders are standing around?

I'm not the one being inconsistent here.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
In a pressurized plane you would kill everyone if a shot went thru the cabin.

Did you watch the video I posted above? Clearly not......the explosive decompression myth is long busted.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
And since private business can determine if you cannot have a gun on their property just like you can in your home, your lack of this basic understanding is a little scary

And it's not private businesses making this regulation......it's the government. Should private businesses make this rule then that's there prerogativeto do.

I don't lack a basic understanding in differentiating between private and public property rights.
Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 3:15:10 PM

Again you just make stuff up. The plane is pressurized. How it's that a myth? You simply are delusional. Do you know how many accidental shootings happen just in the US? 17000 per year. They also serve alcohol on planes. Guns and booze don't mix. And again if a company doesn't want guns in their property then so be it. Buy a plane if you hate it so much

You do not have a right to fly. It's called a privledge!



_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Again you just make stuff up. The plane is pressurized. How it's that a myth?

I'm not going to scream and yell at you anymore, but please try to be less intentionally difficult.

Just because a plane is slightly pressurized doesn't mean it is going to completely explode open when it is shot. Do human lungs explode, destroying your entire body, when they get stabbed or shot? May I remind you that they are also under pressure....very similar PSI.

Sure the cabin would begin to leak out of that bullet hole.......but most cabins already leak. I'd imagine that after a gun battle the plane would be doing an emergency landing soon anyways......and in the event of cabin depressurization they have bags that already fall from the ceiling.

Soooooooo.....

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
You simply are delusional. Do you know how many accidental shootings happen just in the US? 17000 per year. They also serve alcohol on planes. Guns and booze don't mix. And again if a company doesn't want guns in their property then so be it. Buy a plane if you hate it so much

If that's really a justification then you just made an argument to ban more guns elsewhere. That's still not a justification to only keep guns just off of planes.

As far as guns and booze don't mix......the DOJ keeps records of people with medicinal pot prescriptions and uses that as grounds to deny them a gun permit. Not sure I like the idea of anyone who has ever smoked pot not being legally allowed to own a gun......but hey.....this is your justification attempt.

Perhaps we should take guns away from cripples and old people too.

As for private planes......I already made note of that exception and don't need to reiterate.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
You do not have a right to fly. It's called a privledge!

I don't have a right to fly in any plane? Or just other peoples planes? Is it a right if I own my own plane like you told me to above?

Clearly not......under any circumstance.......so that's why I bring it up. I have the right to do what I am told and I have the right to like it......those are our rights in this country today.
Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 3:46:16 PM

Mock. Mythbusters is an entertainment show. I watch it regularly. While their simulated experiment MIGHT sometimes show a particular side it's not something thats a rule more than exception


Here is a list of decompression accidents aboard aircrafts. Hard to count on my phone but looks like several dozen to say the least.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

And your pot info is also wrong. Their are provisions in Ohio Ccw for example that does not take away your ability to carry with misdeamor possession of narcotics

_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Mock. Mythbusters is an entertainment show. I watch it regularly. While their simulated experiment MIGHT sometimes show a particular side it's not something thats a rule more than exception

That we do agree with.......they get lots and lots of shit wrong.

It is an entertainment show......not an academic study and I just used it as an illustration.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Here is a list of decompression accidents aboard aircrafts. Hard to count on my phone but looks like several dozen to say the least.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

Exactly how many of those were from bullets? As I said before, just because your lungs get pierced does not mean that your entire body is going to automatically explode. I can provide you plenty of pictures of bodies ripped to shreds, from clear explosions, but it still doesn't mean that it happened because their lungs were pierced.

Get my point on causation?

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
And your pot info is also wrong. Their are provisions in Ohio Ccw for example that does not take away your ability to carry with misdeamor possession of narcotics

The DOJ doesn't give a shit about your state rights unfortunately..........as is evident in constant pot clinic raids and seizures over here.

BTW SNAKE.......kuddos on providing a link and being civil.

You have lowered my blood pressure ten points already

BTW X 2........

reading through your posted wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

Aircraft fuselages are designed with ribs to prevent tearing; the size of the hole is one of the factors that determines the speed of decompression, and a bullet hole is too small to cause rapid or explosive decompression.

Is that definitive enough for you?
Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 3:56:23 PM

Originally posted by: Mockery
BTW X 2........

reading through your posted wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

Bullets cause explosive decompression
Aircraft fuselages are designed with ribs to prevent tearing; the size of the hole is one of the factors that determines the speed of decompression, and a bullet hole is too small to cause rapid or explosive decompression.

Is that definitive enough for you?

Again mock there are no real world studies since no one wants to die in mid flight while plugging bullets into the plane.. I understand what you are saying but a 45 with hollow points makes a huge fuckin hole. Not a pencil size hole.

Btw Payne Stewart and everyone on his plane died when a small hole caused the plane to depressurize
_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Mockery
BTW X 2........

reading through your posted wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

Bullets cause explosive decompression
Aircraft fuselages are designed with ribs to prevent tearing; the size of the hole is one of the factors that determines the speed of decompression, and a bullet hole is too small to cause rapid or explosive decompression.

Is that definitive enough for you?

Again mock there are no real world studies since no one wants to die in mid flight while plugging bullets into the plane.. I understand what you are saying but a 45 with hollow points makes a huge fuckin hole. Not a pencil size hole.

Btw Payne Stewart and everyone on his plane died when a small hole caused the plane to depressurize

Plenty of planes have been shot........we have two world wars and countless battles to confirm this assumption.

Bullet holes don't happen from just a single direction.

Zero planes have ever exploded open from a single gun shot to a pressurized cabin. Not unless the cabin was pressurized to hundreds of PSI, past the point of killing everyone inside of it.

If you have any contradictory evidence to this I would very much enjoy seeing it.

i still have not figured out how Mockery thinks force is ok to stop people from bringing dangerous biological items onboard a plane but not guns.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The right is more virtuous than the left. They have twice as many virtues because they have double the standards.

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Mockery
BTW X 2........

reading through your posted wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncontrolled_decompression#Notable_decompression_accidents_and_incidents

Bullets cause explosive decompression
Aircraft fuselages are designed with ribs to prevent tearing; the size of the hole is one of the factors that determines the speed of decompression, and a bullet hole is too small to cause rapid or explosive decompression.

Is that definitive enough for you?

Again mock there are no real world studies since no one wants to die in mid flight while plugging bullets into the plane.. I understand what you are saying but a 45 with hollow points makes a huge fuckin hole. Not a pencil size hole.

Btw Payne Stewart and everyone on his plane died when a small hole caused the plane to depressurize

Plenty of planes have been shot........we have two world wars and countless battles to confirm this assumption.

Bullet holes don't happen from just a single direction.

Zero planes have ever exploded open from a single gun shot to a pressurized cabin. Not unless the cabin was pressurized to hundreds of PSI, past the point of killing everyone inside of it.

If you have any contradictory evidence to this I would very much enjoy seeing it.

I doubt any planes in ww2 were pressurized and flying at the altitudes of today's commercial airliners

It doesn't have to cause explosive decompression. It still can kill everyone. And the list I provided shows dozens of explosive decompression incidents.


Soldiers are not carrying around live ammo at bases(excluding MPs) or flying to places with their guns locked and loaded because accidents can happen. As you have stated a bazillion times. There is a huge majority of stupid fuckin people out there. Not sure about you but stupid people carrying guns on planes is like smoking cigarettes in a firework factory

_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Interesting story about Payne Stewart........

Crazy way to die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payne_Stewart

Reading his "Death" section the NTSB found that he died from depressurization but made no mention to it being from a small hole.

The report gently chides Sunjet Aviation for the possibility that this would have made the problem harder to identify, track, and resolve; as well as the fact that in at least one instance the plane was flown with an unauthorized maintenance deferral for cabin pressure problems.

I realize that people can die from depressurization, or we wouldn't bother to pressurize airplanes. I'm just still not convinced that a single bullet hole can do the job.

It's essentially a flow problem.......and as big as even a 50 caliber hole is, to even a tiny plane, it would take a lot of holes to depressurize an airplane at a rate above what the on board oxygen system is able to put out.

Originally posted by: Mockery
I'm just still not convinced that a single bullet hole can do the job.

well if you want to ban me from bringing dangerous biological specimens onboard a plane, by force, i believe as a fair trade off since you theorize only one bullet hole in a plane might not do anything, that one random person be allowed to bring a gun on a plane with one bullet.
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The right is more virtuous than the left. They have twice as many virtues because they have double the standards.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
I doubt any planes in ww2 were pressurized and flying at the altitudes of today's commercial airliners

Fair point.......but plenty of planes have been shot and then flown to such altitudes.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
It doesn't have to cause explosive decompression. It still can kill everyone. And the list I provided shows dozens of explosive decompression incidents.

The list you illustrated also said that a bullet hole can't do explosive decompression.

I realize that decompression, however, is a problem and is probably the most severe thing to worry about (hence the reason planes already have oxygen masks).

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Soldiers are not carrying around live ammo at bases(excluding MPs) or flying to places with their guns locked and loaded because accidents can happen. As you have stated a bazillion times. There is a huge majority of stupid fuckin people out there. Not sure about you but stupid people carrying guns on planes is like smoking cigarettes in a firework factory

Fair enough......and I'm not suggesting it is a good idea either. Just making a point that sometimes our fears outweigh our better judgments.

Like cell phones being used at gas station.

bullets hitting a car gas tank making them explode.

http://dsc.discovery.com/cars/top-10/car-myths/09.html

And all sorts of other senselessly disprovable shit.

On a personal level I'm perfectly ok with being on a plane without guns. I don't even want cellphones (mainly because people are stupidly fucking annoying with them).

Originally posted by: Pixel
i still have not figured out how Mockery thinks force is ok to stop people from bringing dangerous biological items onboard a plane but not guns.

You got me confuzered with Sam........happens all the time.

Half the time I think you are Snake.

Originally posted by: Pixel

Originally posted by: Mockery
I'm just still not convinced that a single bullet hole can do the job.

well if you want to ban me from bringing dangerous biological specimens onboard a plane, by force, i believe as a fair trade off since you theorize only one bullet hole in a plane might not do anything, that one random person be allowed to bring a gun on a plane with one bullet.

Private companies have the right to accept or deny anyone they want........for any reason they want.

That's your posse telling private property what grounds they can and can not deny someone a service over.

Not mine.

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: Pixel
i still have not figured out how Mockery thinks force is ok to stop people from bringing dangerous biological items onboard a plane but not guns.

You got me confuzered with Sam........happens all the time.

Half the time I think you are Snake.

you can't even keep up with your own positions

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: samUwell

Originally posted by: Pixel
let me ask you, since you brought it up, as a private citizen, why would i not be able to bring ebola virus in my carry on if i had it in secure containers?

does the country you are entering allow weaponized ebola?

hell, i think if word got out that someone was transporting weaponized ebola aboard a plane, the US airforce would shoot that fucker down right away.

It's such a threat and is so hard to detect that we should just shoot down any plane where someone reportedly gets ill unexpectedly.

We shouldn't chance it and anyone who sneezes, or coughs, should be promptly ejected from the airplane.

you agreed with sam whose position was no ebola aka dangerous biological specimen on a plane, and if it gets on, shoot it down.

try to keep up with your own fragile mind chap
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The right is more virtuous than the left. They have twice as many virtues because they have double the standards.

Originally posted by: Pixel

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: Pixel
i still have not figured out how Mockery thinks force is ok to stop people from bringing dangerous biological items onboard a plane but not guns.

You got me confuzered with Sam........happens all the time.

Half the time I think you are Snake.

you can't even keep up with your own positions

Originally posted by: Mockery

Originally posted by: samUwell

Originally posted by: Pixel
let me ask you, since you brought it up, as a private citizen, why would i not be able to bring ebola virus in my carry on if i had it in secure containers?

does the country you are entering allow weaponized ebola?

hell, i think if word got out that someone was transporting weaponized ebola aboard a plane, the US airforce would shoot that fucker down right away.

It's such a threat and is so hard to detect that we should just shoot down any plane where someone reportedly gets ill unexpectedly.

We shouldn't chance it and anyone who sneezes, or coughs, should be promptly ejected from the airplane.

you agreed with sam whose position was no ebola aka dangerous biological specimen on a plane, and if it gets on, shoot it down.

try to keep up with your own fragile mind chap

Whether Sam knows it or not.......I was being sarcastic.

If you read that post again you will see that I said if anyone even coughs, or sneezes, we should shoot the plane down.

So I'm pretty sure that would be fucking ridiculous. Ridiculous enough that I had hoped (obviously incorrectly) that it wouldn't be taken seriously.

On a personal level I'm really not sure what my individual opinion is on that issue. I can see where private airports could want to run thermal imagining cameras to keep sick people off planes. I can perhaps see a desire for a WHO. Haven't really put much thought into the topic besides that.

If you are really interested I'm sure I can manufacture something for this debate.

Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 4:37:46 PM

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
If two people get into an argument at Church's Chicken over which rapper is better and start to shoot at each other...

LOL! Okay, this made me laugh

Originally posted by: Neechoo Cheeska

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
If two people get into an argument at Church's Chicken over which rapper is better and start to shoot at each other...

LOL! Okay, this made me laugh

at least someone saw my humor
_______________________________________________________________
"I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making it easy for them in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it" Ben Franklin

Just gonna post a few things here, since this is actually my field, and you guys are way off on a bunch of things.



#1 That's called an outflow valve (of a 737-8 to be exact). Every pressurized airplane has one, so there's ALWAYS a hole in your airplane, with air flowing out at all times. It keeps the pressure at a difference of roughly 8-9 p.s.i. Yes, it's that low of a pressure difference.



#2 Aloha Airlines #243 - the most famous decompression accident. One person died, a flight attendant who was serving beverages at the time of explosive decompression. She was blown out (not sucked by pressure, blown by wind).

#3 Decompression accidents - It's worth noting that the majority of accidents involving decompression are not fatal to a single person on board (pets are more vulnerable). 9/10 times you'll walk away with an earache. It takes a hell of a decompression for any worse. The type of decompression you should worry about is the one where it happens slowly and nobody notices or where they don't realize the oxygen isn't working properly and don't descend (Payne Stewart). Hypoxia is the leading cause of death in decompression accidents.

#4 Armed Pilots. Not all pilots are allowed to carry. It is a very strict program that pilots must go through in order to have the option of being armed. There have been accidental discharges, the bullet DID penetrate the aircraft skin. Nothing happened to the plane.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jan/3/guns-in-the-cockpit/ - A good article about the armed pilot program.
Post edited by ]-[ypnotik at 9/14/2012 4:59:20 PM

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Neechoo Cheeska

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
If two people get into an argument at Church's Chicken over which rapper is better and start to shoot at each other...

LOL! Okay, this made me laugh

at least someone saw my humor

If it makes you feel better.......

I think everything you believe and say is hysterical....

(just teasing)

Originally posted by: ]-[ypnotik
Just gonna post a few things here, since this is actually my field, and you guys are way off on a bunch of things.



#1 That's called an outflow valve (of a 737-8 to be exact). Every pressurized airplane has one, so there's ALWAYS a hole in your airplane, with air flowing out at all times. It keeps the pressure at a difference of roughly 8-9 p.s.i. Yes, it's that low of a pressure difference.



#2 Aloha Airlines #243 - the most famous decompression accident. One person died, a flight attendant who was serving beverages at the time of explosive decompression. She was blown out (not sucked by pressure, blown by wind).

#3 Decompression accidents - It's worth noting that the majority of accidents involving decompression are not fatal to a single person on board (pets are more vulnerable). 9/10 times you'll walk away with an earache. It takes a hell of a decompression for any worse. The type of decompression you should worry about is the one where it happens slowly and nobody notices or where they don't realize the oxygen isn't working properly and don't descend (Payne Stewart). Hypoxia is the leading cause of death in decompression accidents.

#4 Armed Pilots. Not all pilots are allowed to carry. It is a very strict program that pilots must go through in order to have the option of being armed. There have been accidental discharges, the bullet DID penetrate the aircraft skin. Nothing happened to the plane.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/jan/3/guns-in-the-cockpit/ - A good article about the armed pilot program.

Well son of a bitch......thank you for posting.

Lots of good information.

I was always wondering how they physically pressurized the cabin. Always thought it would be terribly inefficient to have tons of oxygen tanks on board. Glad to see it's essentially just a pressure pump tied to a hole in the skin.

Thanks again!!

shit, for a change, that was actually nice, to be able to read a normal reply from someone who knows what he is talking about, all told without displaying pompous superiority all the time.
_____________________________

Originally posted by: Smiling Canadian
.... My point was...with a shit attitude like yours...ie. you know better than everyone else about everything apparently...how did you get through without getting a good ass whipping? I know how your attitude would go over during my time and I just stated what would be done about it. It was a fact of life at the time. ...

Originally posted by: Mockery
....

Well son of a bitch......thank you for posting.

Lots of good information.

I was always wondering how they physically pressurized the cabin. Always thought it would be terribly inefficient to have tons of oxygen tanks on board. Glad to see it's essentially just a pressure pump tied to a hole in the skin.

Thanks again!!

they modeled it after your own anus, a valve to let things come out or in, depending how high you are!

edit:
Post edited by Aria Giovanni.pZ at 9/14/2012 5:05:53 PM

I have to remember that this isn't a space craft.......even at high altitudes the air is still air. It is just at a different atmospheric pressure. That our lungs require a certain level of pressure to successfully pull oxygen out.

All armed pilots are trained and deputized federal law enforcement officers. Prior to inception of the armed pilot program, there were reckless predictions of accidental shootings and safety degradations. The facts illustrate the absurdity of these claims. The number of pilots who have stepped forward to attend training (at their own time and expense) is huge. Airline pilots have been (re)armed for nearly five years now and the program has a safety record that is superior to any law enforcement agency in the country.

Love it.......great article.

http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-3965159.html

Also proves a lot of my previous suspicions.
Post edited by Mockery at 9/14/2012 5:08:13 PM

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ

they modeled it after your own anus, a valve to let things come out or in, depending how high you are!

I swear that way more comes out than goes in........and that's even when I'm not high.

Originally posted by: Mockery
Well son of a bitch......thank you for posting.

Lots of good information.

I was always wondering how they physically pressurized the cabin. Always thought it would be terribly inefficient to have tons of oxygen tanks on board. Glad to see it's essentially just a pressure pump tied to a hole in the skin.

Thanks again!!

It's actually incredibly simple. In a typical system, part of the engine intake gets siphoned off (called "bleed air" - basically a build-up of air pressure). Some of this air goes to power pneumatic systems, some for de-icing the wings (it comes in at >200 degrees C). The cabin air comes from this also, usually a bit earlier in compression stages of the jet engine so it stays cooler, but in older engines it comes in at the end right before fuel is added. The environmental system cools this off (a few ways to do this), re-humidifies it (this is where that weird smell comes in) and allows it to flow into the cabin through multiple vents and those overhead nozzles. The outflow valve opens and closes as needed to keep a cabin altitude of around 10,000' on most aircraft (the 787 keeps it around 8,000').

A few fun facts:

This outflow valve is one of the main reasons that smoking isn't allowed on aircraft (other than the obvious). The smoke contains a bunch of shit that, when passed through the outflow valve gets stuck on it a bit, causing the valve to jam sometimes. When it can't open properly, the air pressure builds up too much and you either have to shut the intake air and have smoky, stale air, or land and fix it.

I found some photos from the US Air accidental discharge incident:


Also, here's the actual armed pilots thing (in easy-to-read wikipedia format) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Flight_Deck_Officer and http://www.tsa.gov/lawenforcement/programs/ffdo.shtm the TSA information page about it.

Aria, the outflow valve is just as it sounds, out only, so you're right, just like most of our assholes.

Edit: I cna code wlel.
Post edited by ]-[ypnotik at 9/14/2012 5:19:28 PM

That's why it is so much fun to have these discussions on the internet. A never ending discussion ensues........everyone professes that they alone know what they are talking about and then an actual expert in the field comes in and obliterates everyone.

You have definitively established who was and who wasn't talking out of their ass today and the wealth of information you provided clearly provided everyone with some well needed perspective.

Great stuff...... It is clear that Mythbuster, despite getting some things twisted, got this explosive decompression myth busted correctly.

Originally posted by: Mockery
Always thought it would be terribly inefficient to have tons of oxygen tanks on board.

God damn I'm posting a bunch in this one, but since you mentioned this, I might as well explain this a bit too. There aren't even bottles for the emergency masks, they use chemical generators, similar to those in submarines and spacecraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_oxygen_generator

Suprisingly, there's a very interesting bit of info on a separate wiki page:

The cockpits of aircraft generally contain a separate oxygen system for the flight crew, and effective use of these has no doubt saved many aircraft. Hypoxia, which can cause severe disorientation and unconsciousness, sets in quickly; if a flight crew does not realise the cabin has decompressed, or is too slow to respond, they can quickly lose control of the aircraft. For example, on Helios Airways Flight 522 in 2005, the cabin depressurized slowly during the ascent to cruising altitude, and whilst the passenger oxygen masks were released at 14,000 feet, the crew were disoriented and failed to realise the significance of this; they lost control within a few minutes, having not put on their own oxygen masks. In the 1999 South Dakota Learjet crash, the NTSB report concluded that only a few seconds delay in using their masks following decompression would be enough to incapacitate a flight crew.

In one case, in 2000, a Boeing 737-800 suffered a slow depressurization, coupled with the failure of the cabin altitude warning system. The depressurization was only discovered by the crew due to the automatic deployment of the passenger oxygen masks; this gave them time to respond appropriately.

In 2011, the FAA announced that it had ordered the removal of all oxygen masks from airplane lavatories in the United States for security reasons.

An interesting thing to note about these is that they get extremely hot. When in use, flight attendants have to watch out for a fire.

Originally posted by: Mockery
That's why it is so much fun to have these discussions on the internet. A never ending discussion ensues........everyone professes that they alone know what they are talking about and then an actual expert in the field comes in and obliterates everyone.

You have definitively established who was and who wasn't talking out of their ass today and the wealth of information you provided clearly provided everyone with some well needed perspective.

Great stuff...... It is clear that Mythbuster, despite getting some things twisted, got this explosive decompression myth busted correctly.

You always talk out of your fucking ass! Please stop the funny!

Thanks Hypnotic for providing some good info.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Thanks Hypnotic for providing some good info.

That you were utterly and colossally wrong about.......

Planes exploding from bullet holes......busted (pic attached above)

Never having information to prove that they will not go bust......busted (pic above).

Not to point fingers, but I'm not sure if you were right about anything so far.

Originally posted by: Aria Giovanni.pZ
shit, for a change, that was actually nice, to be able to read a normal reply from someone who knows what he is talking about, all told without displaying pompous superiority all the time.

I dunno. It completely goes against TWL GenFor rule. I say ban him!

Personally, my fears of guns being discharged on an aircraft have nothing to do with decompression, but instead the fact that you only have two narrow directions to fire which allows absolutely no cover for anyone (funnel of death). This can make an act of self defense cause more harm than good. Like I said previously, in such a tight space with so many people, a gunman can be subdued with non-lethal means to avoid the astronomically high odds of causing collateral damage. Firing a weapon in a scenario like that is more selfish than selfless.