Turkish Troops, Weapons Head Toward Iraq

SIRNAK, Turkey - Dozens of Turkish military vehicles loaded with soldiers and heavy weapons rumbled toward the Iraq border on Monday after an ambush by guerrilla Kurds that left eight soldiers missing and killed 12.

Iraq's president said the rebels would announce a cease-fire later in the day. Turkey's government, which has rejected similar announcements in the past, said the country will pursue diplomacy before it sends troops across the rugged frontier.

Turkey's military said it lost contact with the eight soldiers after Sunday's clash and said 34 guerrillas had been killed so far in a counteroffensive. A pro-Kurdish news agency said the eight were captured - a claim that would make it the largest seizure since 1995, when guerrillas grabbed eight soldiers and took them to northern Iraq.

"Right now, these soldiers are hostages in the hands of our forces," the pro-Kurdish Firat News Agency quoted a rebel commander, Bahoz Erdal, as saying.

Erdal said the soldiers' families should not worry about the fate of their sons: "We have not harmed them and we will not."

The ambush on Sunday outraged an already frustrated public. Demonstrations erupted across the country and opposition leaders called for an immediate strike against rebel bases in Iraq, despite appeals for restraint from Iraq, the U.S. and European leaders.

In Washington, the State Department said the United States has opened a diplomatic "full court press" to urge Turkey not to invade northern Iraq.

"In our view, there are better ways to deal with this issue," spokesman Sean McCormack said, stressing that the United States regards the the Kurdistan Workers' Party, known by its Kurdish acronym PKK, as a terrorist organization.

President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, said the PKK would make a cease-fire announcement later Monday.

http://www.military.com/NewsContent/0,13319,154037,00.html

======

O boy. I can see this getting out of control quick; especially if they [the Turks] cross into northern Iraq.

Post edited by [-NM-] -SS- at 10/22/2007 4:12:45 PM

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

Yea, this is bad news. Now couple this with our attempts by certaini policital parties to label the atrocities by Turkey at this given time and we lose some ability to talk with Turkey. Timing is everything is this doesnt boad well for anyone

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Trust me when I say if a bus hits you I will be smiling

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Yea. I can't post anything without the flames and baiting.

^^ He said it, not me.

This is going to further complicate our quagmire.

Nuke Em All
_________________________________________________________________________

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Originally posted by: =>PX<=Major
This is going to further complicate our quagmire.

Definitely.

The Turks have a right to defend themselves though, if the Kurds keep crossing over and engaging the Turkish military, they have every right to be doing what they are.

This is going to add some major instability to a region that already is a mess. I'm curious to see what the Iraqi Pres. will do if the Turks cross over with a major military operation, will he send Iraqi troops North? If so, where will he pull them from and what effect will that have on those areas?

Lots of "what ifs" here.

Originally posted by: Hotniks

Originally posted by: =>PX<=Major
This is going to further complicate our quagmire.

Definitely.

The Turks have a right to defend themselves though, if the Kurds keep crossing over and engaging the Turkish military, they have every right to be doing what they are.

This is going to add some major instability to a region that already is a mess. I'm curious to see what the Iraqi Pres. will do if the Turks cross over with a major military operation, will he send Iraqi troops North? If so, where will he pull them from and what effect will that have on those areas?

Lots of "what ifs" here.

You also have to take into account what I mentioned before which is how much diplomatically we can do from our vantage point because of the proposal on the genocide being pushed here. People that think that isnt going to effect talks with Turkey are naive to say the least. The ripple effect of our actions here could make it very difficult to convince the Turks to hold their troops as we push Iraq to stop the crossboarder attacks.

That is just idiotic, Snake, and nobody with common sense takes it into account. It is just stupid.

That is why I laughed at you: you have the nerve to call my poke at the idiotic comment of a shock jock who isn't even affiliated with a political party 'partisan BS', while posting completely unsubstantiated speculation like the Democratic party has hurt our ability to talk to Turkey as fact without blinking. It is not possible to be a bigger hypocrite than what you portray every day.
______________________________________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Trust me when I say if a bus hits you I will be smiling

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Yea. I can't post anything without the flames and baiting.

^^ He said it, not me.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Now couple this with our attempts by certaini policital parties to label the atrocities by Turkey at this given time and we lose some ability to talk with Turkey. Timing is everything is this doesnt boad well for anyone

Bullshit is strong in this one.

Yea, recalling an ambasador is nothing.

Yea, idiotic to think it could cause problems

This must just be BS I made up according to Cobalt

UNLESS:


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Turkey on Thursday recalled its ambassador to the United States and warned of repercussions in a growing dispute over congressional efforts to label the World War I era killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turkish forces "genocide."

"Yesterday some in Congress wanted to play hardball," said Egemen Bagis, foreign policy adviser to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan. "I can assure you Turkey knows how to play hardball."

The resolution arrives at a particularly sensitive point in U.S.-Turkish relations. The United States has urged Turkey not to send its troops over the border into northern Iraq to fight Kurdish separatist rebels, who launched some cross-border attacks against Turkish targets.

Observers of U.S.-Turkish relations have argued the House resolution could make Turkey less inclined to use restraint in dealing with its longstanding problems with the Kurdistan Workers Party, known as the PKK.


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/11/us.turkey.armenians/index.html
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/22/2007 4:57:17 PM

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Now couple this with our attempts by certaini policital parties to label the atrocities by Turkey at this given time and we lose some ability to talk with Turkey. Timing is everything is this doesnt boad well for anyone

Bullshit is strong in this one.

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Trust me when I say if a bus hits you I will be smiling

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Yea. I can't post anything without the flames and baiting.

^^ He said it, not me.

Hows that bullshit Cobalt. Smack you right back in the face did it?

Here was another interesting article about all this BS I made up according to two posters in this thread. I mean SNAKE made it all up. Notice the highlighted areas:


Armenia Genocide Bill Turkey Warns US
Turkey warns US about Armenia genocide bill as angry Turks are ready to cut U.S. ties.

Turkey is becoming less restrained about defying the United States because of a United States congressional committee’s approval of a resolution labeling the mass killings of Armenians around the time of World War I as genocide.

“In the United States, there are several narrow-minded legislators who can’t think of their own interests and who cannot understand the importance of Turkey,” said Murat Mercan, head of the Turkish parliament’s foreign relations committee. Mercan was speaking of the bill in the US congress which has already passed a house committee that labels the deaths of approximately 1,500,000 Armenians as genocide.

Turkey’s top general, Gen. Yasar Buyukanit, toldthe daily Milliyet newspaper that a congressional committee’s approval of the measure had already harmed ties between Turkey and the US. “If this resolution passed in the committee passes the House as well, our military ties with the U.S. will never be the same again,” Buyukanit was quoted as saying.

“I’m the military chief; I deal with security issues. I’m not a politician,” Buyukanit was quoted as saying by Milliyet. “In this regard, the U.S. shot its own foot.”

The relationship that the US has with Turkey is an important one. The United States military uses facilities in Turkey, especially Incirlik Air Force Base, to send about 70 percent of U.S. air cargo to Iraq. About one-third of the fuel used by the U.S. military in Iraq is send through Turkey. U.S. bases also get water and other supplies carried in overland by Turkish truckers who cross into Iraq’s northern Kurdish region.

In addition to Turkey’s threat to close off Incirlik Air Force Base, Turkey may decide to conduct a military campaign into northern Iraq to root out rebels who seek a unified, independent nation for Kurds in the region. From a base inside Iraq, Murat Karayilan, head of the armed wing of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, or PKK, warned that an eventual Turkish incursion would “make Turkey experience a Vietnam war.”

The PKK has been fighting for autonomy in southeast Turkey since 1984. The conflict has claimed tens of thousands of lives and is once again escalating. Turkey says the rebels use Iraqi Kurdish territory as a safe haven and want to cross the border into Kurdish Iraq to hunt them down.

Should the “genocide bill” pass congress a serious split will occur between the US and Turkey that will further complicate and very likely harm the US position in Iraq and the entire region. In my opinion, this is a very stupid time for the US congress to press forward with a bill that if passed has the potential to add such an addition layer of complications and hardship upon the US military.

This is one bit of stupidity that can not be laid at President Bush’s feet. The President and his team must be horrified at the turn in the Turkey - US relationship that the passage of the genocide bill by a congressional committee has already caused. Should in response Turkey kick the US military out of Turkey and then invade Northern Iraq the potential for a complete disaster for the US is high.

For one thing the US would find that the only region in Iraq, northern Iraq governed by the Kurds, that has thus far been relatively stable would be enveloped in chaos. There would be US forces, Kurdish militias, PPK forces, and Turkish troops all operating within a fairly small area.

At it’s worse we could have situations where US troops and/or Kurdish militia units are head to head with heavily armed Turkish forces seeking out PPK forces who are operating in Iraq. A miscalculation and mistake could easily escalate into direct conflict between US forces and other armed forces in the area. The fog of war could get quite murky indeed.

The deterioration of the US relationship with Turkey could be yet another set of unintended consequences arising from the US invasion of Iraq. Should Turkey close off Turkish air space and port facilities to the US the US will have to work overtime to find other routes to supply our forces in Iraq. Without a doubt alternative means will not be as attractive as present ones in Turkey or we would already be using them.

Should Turkey invade Iraq the world is just that much closer to a full blown World War Three. As in all wars, once underway one step leads to another in a painful journey on an uncertain rough winding path. The path’s destination is obscured until the end of the conflict with the full consequences not being known until many years later.

Turkey’s anger at the US and the US congress’s insensitivity to the degree of their anger may be a complication that may seem minor to some but that can lead to grave consequences. Such miscalculations have fueled every war since the first rock was tossed thousands of years ago.

Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/22/2007 5:11:09 PM

thats a pretty good imagination you have there Snake



"When a true genius appears in this world you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."
-- Jonathan Swift

Originally posted by: Killet
thats a pretty good imagination you have there Snake

Yea, I know... I have much more to say but to create all this BS is taxing. Almost time for dinner

We have pledged to protect IRaq as long as we occupy their country so I think it sucks that we don't take a strong stance against Turkey. It's a real sell out of Iraq.

Originally posted by: Gen.ArielSharon
We have pledged to protect IRaq as long as we occupy their country so I think it sucks that we don't take a strong stance against Turkey. It's a real sell out of Iraq.

As long as its not too dry and comes with cranberry sauce, I say we side with turkey..

They are sending guns and troops because of the terrorists, not because of US domestic policy. Hasn't that been the mantra of the neo-cons for the past 7 years? Domestic and foreign politics are two completely unrelated fields of diplomacy.

Originally posted by: Coba|t
They are sending guns and troops because of the terrorists, not because of US domestic policy. Hasn't that been the mantra of the neo-cons for the past 7 years? Domestic and foreign politics are two completely unrelated fields of diplomacy.

Sounds like you are skirting the issue now. I have already shown that the ripple of effect of the genocide bill could come back and bite us bad. What does neo-cons have to do with this at all? Turkey is telling us this, not anyone else. Why not listen?

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t
They are sending guns and troops because of the terrorists, not because of US domestic policy. Hasn't that been the mantra of the neo-cons for the past 7 years? Domestic and foreign politics are two completely unrelated fields of diplomacy.

Sounds like you are skirting the issue now. I have already shown that the ripple of effect of the genocide bill could come back and bite us bad. What does neo-cons have to do with this at all? Turkey is telling us this, not anyone else. Why not listen?

Yea, this is ripple effects of a congressional bill that has no effect on conditions on the ground, not a ripple effect of the war in Iraq

Look over there! That is to blame! Not the weak Iraqi government who can't control cross-boarder terrorist raids INTO its country let alone OUT of its country.

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t
They are sending guns and troops because of the terrorists, not because of US domestic policy. Hasn't that been the mantra of the neo-cons for the past 7 years? Domestic and foreign politics are two completely unrelated fields of diplomacy.

Sounds like you are skirting the issue now. I have already shown that the ripple of effect of the genocide bill could come back and bite us bad. What does neo-cons have to do with this at all? Turkey is telling us this, not anyone else. Why not listen?

Yea, this is ripple effects of a congressional bill that has no effect on conditions on the ground, not a ripple effect of the war in Iraq

Look over there! That is to blame! Not the weak Iraqi government who can't control cross-boarder terrorist raids INTO its country let alone OUT of its country.

Its just BS Cobalt. Remember. You said I made it up. Funny how turkey is telling us this and the analysts/experts seem to think its a big issue as well. But what the fuck do they know. They should just consult you from now on.

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t
They are sending guns and troops because of the terrorists, not because of US domestic policy. Hasn't that been the mantra of the neo-cons for the past 7 years? Domestic and foreign politics are two completely unrelated fields of diplomacy.

Sounds like you are skirting the issue now. I have already shown that the ripple of effect of the genocide bill could come back and bite us bad. What does neo-cons have to do with this at all? Turkey is telling us this, not anyone else. Why not listen?

Yea, this is ripple effects of a congressional bill that has no effect on conditions on the ground, not a ripple effect of the war in Iraq

Look over there! That is to blame! Not the weak Iraqi government who can't control cross-boarder terrorist raids INTO its country let alone OUT of its country.

Its just BS Cobalt. Remember. You said I made it up.

No, you said that, just now.

Funny how turkey is telling us this and the analysts/experts seem to think its a big issue as well. But what the fuck do they know. They should just consult you from now on.

The fact is, the Iraqi government can't control its boarders, so Turkey is suffering because of PKK activity along the boarder. Thats not the direct result of the US congress in 2007, it was the doing of the US congress in 2002.

ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Cobalt, you dont seem like the type to not use their brain. So why are you playing coy now? Words get people killed. Why would you think for a second that this is any less? Turkey has a MAJOR issue with this genocide bill. Is it worth gambling over another front of a war or where they are no longer our allies or allow us to use their land to bring equipment that HELPS and SAVES THE LIVES of our troops? Wouldnt it be prudent to put the lives of our troops ahead of some word that calls out atrocities from 80 years ago? That can always been done at a later point, so why risk lives because of politics? I know you get this. Im not trying to push you into any corner to attack your view. But Jesus man can't this fucking bill wait? Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Is it worth gambling over another front of a war...
why risk lives because of politics?...
Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?...

For your first question, the gamble came back in 2002 when we invaded a country that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have WMD.
Why risk lives because of politics? I agree, lets just get the fuck out of Iraq, screw politics.
And no, pushing through this genocide bill has cost no lives. The war in Iraq however, that has cost thousands of lives, and more will come of it.

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Is it worth gambling over another front of a war...
why risk lives because of politics?...
Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?...

For your first question, the gamble came back in 2002 when we invaded a country that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have WMD.
Why risk lives because of politics? I agree, lets just get the fuck out of Iraq, screw politics.
And no, pushing through this genocide bill has cost no lives. The war in Iraq however, that has cost thousands of lives, and more will come of it.

We cannot go back in time, so why try to use it to justify increasing the risk to our troops? That makes no sense. Because soldiers have already died its OK to piss of one of the few countries supporting us there?? IM sorry, but if you can't see the risk that some politically laced bill(that is nothing but lip service)that puts not only our own troops lives in danger but could escalate the situation where lives from Kurds, Turks and Arabs will be destroyed then I was clearly wrong about you and that you used your brain.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/22/2007 11:32:16 PM

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Is it worth gambling over another front of a war...
why risk lives because of politics?...
Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?...

For your first question, the gamble came back in 2002 when we invaded a country that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have WMD.
Why risk lives because of politics? I agree, lets just get the fuck out of Iraq, screw politics.
And no, pushing through this genocide bill has cost no lives. The war in Iraq however, that has cost thousands of lives, and more will come of it.

We cannot go back in time, so why try to use it to justify increasing the risk to our troops? That makes no sense. Because soldiers have already died its OK to piss of one of the few countries supporting us there.

This isn't about what was OK to do because of what was not OK to do. This is about Turkish troops, and weapons headed towards Iraq to stop a tangible, real enemy on the ground.

IM sorry, but if you can't see the risk that some politically laced bill(that is nothing but lip service) puts not only our own troops lives in danger but could escalagte the situation where lives from Kurds, Turks and Arabs will be destroyed then I was clearly wrong about you and that you used your brain.

How is Turkey going after Kurdish rebells going to harm our troops pray tell?

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Is it worth gambling over another front of a war...
why risk lives because of politics?...
Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?...

For your first question, the gamble came back in 2002 when we invaded a country that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have WMD.
Why risk lives because of politics? I agree, lets just get the fuck out of Iraq, screw politics.
And no, pushing through this genocide bill has cost no lives. The war in Iraq however, that has cost thousands of lives, and more will come of it.

We cannot go back in time, so why try to use it to justify increasing the risk to our troops? That makes no sense. Because soldiers have already died its OK to piss of one of the few countries supporting us there.

This isn't about what was OK to do because of what was not OK to do. This is about Turkish troops, and weapons headed towards Iraq to stop a tangible, real enemy on the ground.

IM sorry, but if you can't see the risk that some politically laced bill(that is nothing but lip service) puts not only our own troops lives in danger but could escalagte the situation where lives from Kurds, Turks and Arabs will be destroyed then I was clearly wrong about you and that you used your brain.

How is Turkey going after Kurdish rebells going to harm our troops pray tell?

Someday when you get older you might get it. Its clear you don't right now. EVERYTHING from words to bills causes other things to happen. IF you can't see the risk that pissing off an ally causes by a bullshit bill then Im done talking with you. And if you read the articles I posted you would see what could happen. You would be a great politician. Lets just look at the small picture and not the big one shall we?
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/22/2007 11:34:48 PM

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Is it worth gambling over another front of a war...
why risk lives because of politics?...
Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?...

For your first question, the gamble came back in 2002 when we invaded a country that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have WMD.
Why risk lives because of politics? I agree, lets just get the fuck out of Iraq, screw politics.
And no, pushing through this genocide bill has cost no lives. The war in Iraq however, that has cost thousands of lives, and more will come of it.

We cannot go back in time, so why try to use it to justify increasing the risk to our troops? That makes no sense. Because soldiers have already died its OK to piss of one of the few countries supporting us there.

This isn't about what was OK to do because of what was not OK to do. This is about Turkish troops, and weapons headed towards Iraq to stop a tangible, real enemy on the ground.

IM sorry, but if you can't see the risk that some politically laced bill(that is nothing but lip service) puts not only our own troops lives in danger but could escalagte the situation where lives from Kurds, Turks and Arabs will be destroyed then I was clearly wrong about you and that you used your brain.

How is Turkey going after Kurdish rebells going to harm our troops pray tell?

Someday when you get older you might get it.

And some day, far into the future, you can debate me and counter my points instead of coping out like you just did.
Post edited by Coba|t at 10/22/2007 11:36:23 PM

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Is it worth gambling over another front of a war...
why risk lives because of politics?...
Does pushing it through cost lives or save them?...

For your first question, the gamble came back in 2002 when we invaded a country that MIGHT or MIGHT NOT have WMD.
Why risk lives because of politics? I agree, lets just get the fuck out of Iraq, screw politics.
And no, pushing through this genocide bill has cost no lives. The war in Iraq however, that has cost thousands of lives, and more will come of it.

We cannot go back in time, so why try to use it to justify increasing the risk to our troops? That makes no sense. Because soldiers have already died its OK to piss of one of the few countries supporting us there.

This isn't about what was OK to do because of what was not OK to do. This is about Turkish troops, and weapons headed towards Iraq to stop a tangible, real enemy on the ground.

IM sorry, but if you can't see the risk that some politically laced bill(that is nothing but lip service) puts not only our own troops lives in danger but could escalagte the situation where lives from Kurds, Turks and Arabs will be destroyed then I was clearly wrong about you and that you used your brain.

How is Turkey going after Kurdish rebells going to harm our troops pray tell?

Someday when you get older you might get it.

And some day, far into the future, you can debate me and counter my points instead of coping out like you just did.

Oh, their isnt debating about what is the path of reason and what is a political statement by certain politicians that clearly increases the risk for all lives in that region to deliver lip service and nothing more. You showed us exactly what makes you Cobalt. You wanna say you won this debate you do that. Most of us can see that politics is what is driving this bill, and not the well being of our troops lives and others there.

You won Cobalt though. I concede.
Post edited by ~~Snake~~ at 10/22/2007 11:44:47 PM

Quitter.

it is posturing. it wont complicate anything for us.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
......dont get all pissy cause I call you out for being a deceptive piece of shit...Too bad it is such a challenge for you to be a better person. I know I would never trust you in combat or when it counts. The bottom line is that you have no honor and you arent the "good person" you attempt to perpetrate on these forums with threads about "mom and dad" or your kids while you purposely fuck up threads about men who's lives are in the balance over accusations of murder and rape. The very men you just said you appreciate - yeah right. You're garbage aria. No class at all.

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Dont avoid the question I gave you. You need to validate your position because right now, you are looking very foolish.

Where you fail is that we do not want the Turks to flare up a fight between them and the PKK. That is a fact. Now add to the mix that our ground troops are also in northern Irag and we are currently embroiled in our own mess. That is also a fact. Talking about going into Iraq over WMD is irrelevant to the discussion at hand as it has absolutely nothing to do with Turkey. That is a fact too.

Here cobalt maybe this might make sense to you:

I kick you in the nuts [the legislation] and then ask you to do something for me [not invade]. How inclined would you be to listen to me?

You wouldnt. Amazing that you cant grasp this.

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Dont avoid the question I gave you. You need to validate your position because right now, you are looking very foolish.

Where you fail is that we do not want the Turks to flare up a fight between them and the PKK. That is a fact. Now add to the mix that our ground troops are also in northern Irag and we are currently embroiled in our own mess. That is also a fact. Talking about going into Iraq over WMD is irrelevant to the discussion at hand as it has absolutely nothing to do with Turkey. That is a fact too.

Fact: Iraq boarders on Turkey.
Fact: That has everything to do with the boarder dispute between turkey and iraq
Fact: The Iraqi government and the US government cant stop boarder incursions into or out of Iraq

Here cobalt maybe this might make sense to you:

I kick you in the nuts [the legislation]

No, the legislation would be that you claim I kicked someone in the nuts, 80 years ago.

and then ask you to do something for me [not invade].

You mean not invade a person who just snuck over the boarder of someone else's property and kicked your nuts?

How inclined would you be to listen to me?

I'd be inclined to secure my state sovereignty over all else, and so would you.

You wouldnt. Amazing that you cant grasp this.

Get a deeper grasp of national politics, sovereignty is the most basic of rights to be maintained, and the PKK are violating Turkey's right of sovereign control.

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-

Originally posted by: Coba|t

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-
ok Cob, explain how that legislation would improve the situation with Turkey. Be specific with your details. Show us your magnificent analytical abilities. I am intrigued how you would think that such legislation is a great idea when the US is trying to keep the Turks from going off on the PKK in northern Iraq.

Why do you think legislation in our country will do anything to Turkey?

Perhaps if we were both in the EU and that body produced the legislation it would have a great effect, but thats not how it works right now.

Dont avoid the question I gave you. You need to validate your position because right now, you are looking very foolish.

Where you fail is that we do not want the Turks to flare up a fight between them and the PKK. That is a fact. Now add to the mix that our ground troops are also in northern Irag and we are currently embroiled in our own mess. That is also a fact. Talking about going into Iraq over WMD is irrelevant to the discussion at hand as it has absolutely nothing to do with Turkey. That is a fact too.

Fact: Iraq boarders on Turkey.
Fact: That has everything to do with the boarder dispute between turkey and iraq
Fact: The Iraqi government and the US government cant stop boarder incursions into or out of Iraq

Here cobalt maybe this might make sense to you:

I kick you in the nuts [the legislation]

No, the legislation would be that you claim I kicked someone in the nuts, 80 years ago.

and then ask you to do something for me [not invade].

You mean not invade a person who just snuck over the boarder of someone else's property and kicked your nuts?

How inclined would you be to listen to me?

I'd be inclined to secure my state sovereignty over all else, and so would you.

You wouldnt. Amazing that you cant grasp this.

Get a deeper grasp of national politics, sovereignty is the most basic of rights to be maintained, and the PKK are violating Turkey's right of sovereign control.

Still lost in the sauce. I dont know how many different ways to explain the simple point that for us to ask Turkey to do something in our favor while insulting them with this legislation is absolutely ridiculous.

About as ridiculous as say.. saying everyone but you doesnt have a grasp on international politics.

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-


About as ridiculous as say.. saying everyone but you doesnt have a grasp on international politics.

Almost ridiculous as, say, threatening to bomb Pakistan 'back to the Stone Age' if they don't help us fight Al Qaeda?

Be realistic, man. That resolution means squat in our ability to talk to India. It is merely another political talking point that anybody who can latch onto it will attempt to use for political gain.
Post edited by DieselFuel! at 10/23/2007 1:33:44 PM

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Trust me when I say if a bus hits you I will be smiling

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Yea. I can't post anything without the flames and baiting.

^^ He said it, not me.

Originally posted by: DieselFuel!

Originally posted by: [-NM-] -SS-


About as ridiculous as say.. saying everyone but you doesnt have a grasp on international politics.

Almost ridiculous as, say, threatening to bomb Pakistan 'back to the Stone Age' if they don't help us fight Al Qaeda?

Be realistic, man. That resolution means squat in our ability to talk to India. It is merely another political talking point that anybody who can latch onto it will attempt to use for political gain.

How you contrive my point as not being realistic is very odd. So DF, if I insult you, would you do any favors for me?

I know you have your angst and very certain you would tell me to fuck off.

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.

We are kind of on a bigger scale than two dudes talking shit. Turkey needs us more than we need them. In any diplomatic relationship, that is really what it all boils down to. When push comes to shove, Turkey will do what is in their best interest, as will we.

This resolution means NOTHING to anybody except a little extra leverage for the television cameras and maybe a few extra million in aid.

I mean, Armitage threatened to bomb Pakistan back to the stone age, and they still have done everything we asked... why? because they need us.
Post edited by DieselFuel! at 10/23/2007 1:50:23 PM

______________________________________________________________________________________________

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Trust me when I say if a bus hits you I will be smiling

Originally posted by: ~~Snake~~
Yea. I can't post anything without the flames and baiting.

^^ He said it, not me.

Ok man, we agree to disagree then.

PATRIOTIC DISSENT IS A LUXURY OF THOSE PROTECTED BY BETTER MEN THAN THEY.