Should an admin in any league be able to ban for hacks without ever providing proof?

Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

Generally, admins utilize tools such as replays, screenshots, and PunkBuster to verify before banning someone...

Originally posted by: SMAK_BulletTooth

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

Generally, admins utilize tools such as replays, screenshots, and PunkBuster to verify before banning someone...

Well, I would certainly hope so.

Take it to the Game Manager... don't air your dirty laundry here...

Unless it is political, it has no bearing in these forums

This is a thread created in general.

Apparently it has no bearing in a particular game forum, so this forum, being the "General" forum, is best suited for such a broad question, covering every game where cheating is possible.

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

There are instances where we have proof but devulging how we figured it out would render the method useless.
|HiFi|TotalCarnage
TeamWarfare Commissioner
RadioHiFi

I don't see how this topic was even brought up..it makes no sense. I'm sure if one the General Forum Whores wanted to ask/answer this question, there would've been a topic about long before this. Not counting all the others discussions about "admins are allowed to do this and not that" kinda thing..

Since the topic is here, I say: Every match should have a demo/recording. Even if it's from an observer. But that would cause trouble in the verbal chatting programs..

Col_frosty, do you have fleas?
Post edited by Creat0r at 10/7/2004 7:33:11 PM

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Dude...

Check out the smileys... It was a JOKE!

Y'know? look at all the popular threads? All political mumbo jumbo?

If you had a problem with RTCW, take it to the RTCW head honcho. You should know better... being top 10 there!

Originally posted by: Creat0r
I don't see how this topic was even brought up..it makes no sense. I'm sure if one the General Forum Whores wanted to ask/answer this question, there would've been a topic about long before this. Not counting all the others discussions about "admins are allowed to do this and not that" kinda thing..

What's doesn't make sense? Apparently you understood the question as you gave your own opinion here...

Originally posted by: Creat0r

Since the topic is here, I say: Every match should have a demo/recording. Even if it's from an observer. But that would cause trouble in the verbal chatting programs..

You forget about people pubbing.

Originally posted by: Creat0r

Col_frosty, do you have fleas?

Talk about not making sense?
Post edited by Col_frosty at 10/7/2004 7:39:23 PM

Originally posted by: TotalCarnage

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

There are instances where we have proof but devulging how we figured it out would render the method useless.

Anyone can take a pb screenshot of anyone on a pb server. That's the way it's done and certainly isn't anything new. I do not believe that holding back the simple ss is gonna benefit anyone. It's not like a pb ss method is anything new.

Frosty,

Might I suggest following the chain of command if you have an issue.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/staff.asp?StaffGroupID=33
|HiFi|TotalCarnage
TeamWarfare Commissioner
RadioHiFi

Oh, it made sense but I figured if someone wanted to ask/answer, the topic would've been created along time ago. But ok.

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
You forget about people pubbing.

I don't understand. Isn't a match private and in a locked server?

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Talk about not making sense?

Possibly perhaps with a hamster.
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Originally posted by: Creat0r
Oh, it made sense but I figured if someone wanted to ask/answer, the topic would've been created along time ago. But ok.

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
You forget about people pubbing.

I don't understand. Isn't a match private and in a locked server?

Dude, you talk about people making demos during matches. But you forget about people pubbing. Do you believe they should make demos and if so, what are they gonna do with them. I was just speaking in general if someone allegedly got caught and was banned by an admin playing any game in any league, should they show the proof.

Originally posted by: TotalCarnage
Frosty,

Might I suggest following the chain of command if you have an issue.

http://www.teamwarfare.com/staff.asp?StaffGroupID=33

There is no reason to. I have no problem with anyone here at TWL or their policies thus far.

My original issue was regarding a problem in another league, but given the fact that I just wanna hear what people think without giving a moderator a reason to lock this thread, I'm keeping the topic strictly about this issue in general rather than airing dirty laundry about another league.

Well I think we where all under the impression it happened here

Seriously, you guys need to cut frosty some slack. We get these threads three times a week, and they generally look like this:
OMG DA ADMINS HERE SUK AND BAN3D M3 FOR CHEATNG 3VAN THOUGH I SADE I WASNT!1!! OMG WTF LOL DA ADMINS H3RE SUK1!111! OMG WTF LOL THAY SUK AT ADMINNG!111 WTF LOL SUK SUK SUK1111!1 WTF
Frosty has posted both respectfully, and intelligently, without "bashing" or showing the mentality of a 6 year old.

]CkB[Zombee           

That grammar is way too good compared to a lot of posts. At least it's cohesive and makes sense. Some posts are down right burtal in grammar and sentence structure.

Also contributing to the thread:

They ban if they are certain that the person was indeed cheating. It's that simple really. If they are convinced the person is cheating then that person will be banned. It helps immensely to have demo's or screenshots or pb catches them cheating. However as mentioned above, there are other ways.

Well then I think TC answered it best when he said that sometimes, divulging the method of detecting a cheat might render taht method useless in the future.

So the short answer is, yes, sometimes we have to trust our admins.

omg h4x

(but seriously do what tc says, he is kinda a big thing)

It used to be that proof had to be provided, or a lengthy explination of the nature of the proof if the actual proof reveals a not-yet-known method for obtaining said proof. If one feels either isn't sufficient, they can go up to the next-in-command admin.

That's how I wanted it done when I was in charge of that stuff, and I assume that's how it's still done because that's the only fair way to do it.

Originally posted by: TotalCarnage

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

There are instances where we have proof but devulging how we figured it out would render the method useless.

There have also been instances where admins have been sent proof of cheating, but still fail act on it. Which just goes to show you that no system is perfect or fool proof....

Originally posted by: Turdslinger

Originally posted by: TotalCarnage

Originally posted by: Col_frosty
Hell no. There is never any good reason for doing so. Because doing so, puts those surrounding the accused player in the awkward position of disassociating from the accused player with no proven reason at all.

thanks

There are instances where we have proof but devulging how we figured it out would render the method useless.

There have also been instances where admins have been sent proof of cheating, but still fail act on it. Which just goes to show you that no system is perfect or fool proof....

My own experience has shown that even seemingly indisputable proof can be shot full of holes.

I had a case in T1 where one team accused another team's player of using happymod (see FF indicators and flag through walls) because the same guy killed another guy that was supposedly "hiding" behind a wall getting ready to cap repeatedly.

They said their proof was indisputable and showed beyond a shadow of a doubt that cheats were being used.

Upon obtaining a demo from the player in question, not only could he actually see the tip of the opposing player's weapon, the player in question also spammed the area when nobody was even there.

Case dismissed.

OMG it's that sexy Vlasic guy!!!!!!

]CkB[Zombee           

Note: this is my personal opinion and does not necessarily represent the views of Teamwarfare.

If someone is banned from a league, the admin should certainly have evidence and be prepared to present it. This evidence can range from something like PB SS to a pub demo. The banned should be able to see the evidence on request, as well as his/her team.

vlasic is here. yay.

Thanks for all the responses.

Originally posted by: Garath
Note: this is my personal opinion and does not necessarily represent the views of Teamwarfare.

If someone is banned from a league, the admin should certainly have evidence and be prepared to present it. This evidence can range from something like PB SS to a pub demo. The banned should be able to see the evidence on request, as well as his/her team.

The problem with not presenting the evidence is that since you don't see the evidence and judge it for yourself, you're caught in the middle of accusing your clanmate and/or friend of hacking and lying to you and just disassociating alltogether. I don't think that's fair. I think an admin should take that into consideration and realize that that's not right. They should present it so you have a clearcut case. Then you can move on. Til then, it's just bad, ethically, IMO.