POSSIBLE NEW LEAGUE ?

Hi guys, i was directed here from Planet Wolfenstein after i posted there on this subject. Unfortunately i was then offline for a month due to internet connection problems, hence my delay in getting here.
I've been playing R.T.C.W. and E.T. since they started, i really love these 2 games and never tire of fraggin' online for hours at a time. But over the past year or so, especially since the arrival of E.T., there's 1 area of the game that's really been getting me, and the other members of my Clan, down. I.E. the use of scripts/configs/binds in the gameplay. Now before i go any further, let me just say, as i have already HAD to say serveral times in my posts at Planet Wolfenstein, that if you use these things to the max during E.T. i'm not calling you a cheat in any way. It's your right to play the game in any way you feel will help you enjoy it. As for me, and the guys at my Clan, we don't use any of them, we play the game the way it " comes out of the box ". In otherwords, all these things, scripts/configs etc. are kept to an absolute minimum. The guys at Planet Wolfenstein suggested that i speak to you all here to get your opinion on wether a league could be set up for like-minded Clans like ours and perhaps start a poll to see what the other E.T. Clans thought about the subject. I personally feel that a league setup which restricted these things to the absolute minimum would be of great benefit to, not only " fun " Clans like ourselves, but to any new Clan wanting to get a taste for " league action " without having to join a league where the Clans are all very experiened in using scripts/binds/configs to the max, you basically just end up as " cannon fodder " otherwise.
I know you guys at TWL already have restrictions in place to deal with several issues, but what we're actually after is a " defaults only " league, a setup for fun/new Clans, that would help and encourage us all to take part in a league due to the fact that we'd know we were all starting off on a " level playing field " right from the start, what do you think guys ?
COME GET SOME !!!

Personally I wanted to start this back in RTCW but no matter how much you argue your gonna get people that whine about how thier PC can not handle the GFX turned all the way up.

Good suggestion but I don't really think it will fly with most people..
___________________________________________________________
**It's not what you say it's how you say it!**

well hell i played with the default config for about 5 months of my 9/10 months of playing ET, so gg.

The tweaks in ET don't really help you see that much more. They just help reduce eye strain.

I don't see why its such a big deal to tweak part the game.
Post edited by Radea at 12/28/2004 2:37:43 PM

As for the "level playing field" it should be noted that anyone can tweak their config within the bounds allowed by league/server settings. Everyone has that freedom.

Also, encouraging players to play with default configs/no scripts etc... does nothing to encourage knowledge of the game. It limits ones' ambitions to learn anything above and beyond. I don't see how that's good for any game. If you know about it and choose to do it, fine, but for those new clans who would do this, it would only encourage ignorance on their part.

Originally posted by: GANG$TA
Hi guys, i was directed here from Planet Wolfenstein after i posted there on this subject. Unfortunately i was then offline for a month due to internet connection problems, hence my delay in getting here.
I've been playing R.T.C.W. and E.T. since they started, i really love these 2 games and never tire of fraggin' online for hours at a time. But over the past year or so, especially since the arrival of E.T., there's 1 area of the game that's really been getting me, and the other members of my Clan, down. I.E. the use of scripts/configs/binds in the gameplay. Now before i go any further, let me just say, as i have already HAD to say serveral times in my posts at Planet Wolfenstein, that if you use these things to the max during E.T. i'm not calling you a cheat in any way. It's your right to play the game in any way you feel will help you enjoy it. As for me, and the guys at my Clan, we don't use any of them, we play the game the way it " comes out of the box ". In otherwords, all these things, scripts/configs etc. are kept to an absolute minimum. The guys at Planet Wolfenstein suggested that i speak to you all here to get your opinion on wether a league could be set up for like-minded Clans like ours and perhaps start a poll to see what the other E.T. Clans thought about the subject. I personally feel that a league setup which restricted these things to the absolute minimum would be of great benefit to, not only " fun " Clans like ourselves, but to any new Clan wanting to get a taste for " league action " without having to join a league where the Clans are all very experiened in using scripts/binds/configs to the max, you basically just end up as " cannon fodder " otherwise.
I know you guys at TWL already have restrictions in place to deal with several issues, but what we're actually after is a " defaults only " league, a setup for fun/new Clans, that would help and encourage us all to take part in a league due to the fact that we'd know we were all starting off on a " level playing field " right from the start, what do you think guys ?

paragraphs are a good thing. this is an eyesore.

I recall the thread over at planetwolfenstein. you called it playing "raw," a term which makes me shudder. But, oh well.

You bring up 2 different things here 1.) the use of scripts and 2.) tweaked cvars. Scripts help automate certain actions and are quite helpful. You'll find that the game was meant to be highly customizable and scripting is one such way to do it.

The second part, cvar tweaking, has been beaten to death ad nauseum. The fact of the matter is this: the playing field IS VERY LEVEL despite your desire to play with 32 bit graphics and darker graphics. How is it level? You have the same option of tweaking your game. The configs of top players have been available for years, there are websites devoted to game tutorials--and much more. There is no adavntage these tweaks give you that is preventing you from competing. Your reluctance to compete is YOUR decision and the playing field is quite level.

I said this before, i wil say it again: if you think cvar tweaking gives you that much of an advantage, get a team like wygc to scrim you using a cfg you specify. PB can be set up to verify everyone is using the same thing. Trust me, you will lose.

If wygc or another team can't do it, I think fatal attraction has some free time

not everyone has a radeon 9800 pro....with default config and my present video card, I get a whooping 20-30 fps on radar...Of course ppl with constant 125 fps don't whine about def configs :/
Post edited by m4kaVeli_ at 12/28/2004 4:19:51 PM

Honestly Evil, guys like you, totally arrogant and biased, never get the point do you ? I'm not interested in how you like to see your paragraphs placed, i'm not interested if my terminology makes you shudder, all i was askng was for a league that suits our type of players to be set up. Is that too much to ask Evil ? Wether you like the idea or not is TOTALLY irrelavent. As i said to you already on Planet Wolfenstein, you already have your type of league, hundreds of them, is it really too much to ask for ONE for us ?
Fmadmonk i see your point m8 but i don't really agree with it. The best thing our type of league would have would be to give new Clans the chance to experience the Clan Warfare aspect of E.T. at an easy level. Then, if they wished, they obviously would have the option to move on to your more advanced leagues at a later date. A noob league, trainer league, call it what you like, but a " very much needed " league it is, imo.
Post edited by GANG$TA at 12/28/2004 4:41:51 PM

COME GET SOME !!!

Originally posted by: GANG$TA
Honestly Evil, guys like you, totally arrogant and biased, never get the point do you ? I'm not interested in how you like to see your paragraphs placed, i'm not interested if my terminology makes you shudder, all i was askng was for a league that suits our type of players to be set up. Is that too much to ask Evil ? Wether you like the idea or not is TOTALLY irrelavent. As i said to you already on Planet Wolfenstein, you already have your type of league, hundreds of them, is it really too much to ask for ONE for us ?
Fmadmonk i see your point m8 but i don't really agree with it. The best thing our type of league would have would be to give new Clans the chance to experience the Clan Warfare aspect of E.T. at an easy level. Then, if they wished, they obviously would have the option to move on to your more advanced leagues at a later date. A noob league, trainer league, call it what you like, but a " very much needed " league it is, imo.

First off, your text IS AN EYESORE to look at. Secondly, I am not arrogant and biased. I am simply stating a fact an imbecile like you is too ignorant to accept. The tweaks and things you claim bother you WILL NOT HELP IMPROVE YOUR GAME PLAY AT ALL. Don't believe me, set up the scrim with a team like I mentioned.

Ridley, a very good shot in ET played with a bone stock config and beat people up regularly. Your argument is specious, your reasoning flawed, and if the games weren't meant to be tweaked, they would be locked in the game engine (try turning off your gun in CoD, you can't do it).

And what's stopping you from starting the league all on your own? I see no imprediment existing. Go for it.

Your argument is as old as the shit in your brain. Now go start you "Noob League" as you called it.

I have been on both sides of this topic in the past. In my noobish days when I was flustered about tweaks that are way extreme, I came off as a jackass. However, I didn't keep an absolute mindset and learned more about what I was arguing about, and even compromised my opinions about tweaks, and scripting.

# About Scripting
--------------------
Scripting is possible in most FPS games. It's encouraged assuming it's practical. For example, scripting to change volume settings so that you can have some sort of echo in console showing a home-made volume bar can be visually useful, and quicker than manually changing it. I made a script to do this, as have many others, but also with mute and unmute settings. It's not complicated, either.

Some people do go overboard using crouch scripts, jump scripts, cycle through weapon scripts, etc.

My binds:

bind CAPSLOCK "+movedown"
bind SPACE "+sprint"
bind ALT "+activate"
bind CTRL "+speed"
bind SHIFT "+moveup"

bind f "weaponbank 3"
bind g "weaponbank 4"
bind r "weaponbank 2"
bind t "weaponbank 1"

bind MOUSE1 "+attack"
bind MOUSE2 "weapalt"
bind MOUSE3 "+reload"

bind 1 "vsay_team affirmative"
bind 2 "vsay_team negative"
bind 3 "wm_sayplayerclass"
bind 4 "vsay_team fireinthehole"
bind 5 "vsay_team medic"
bind 6 "vsay_team needammo"

bind w "+forward"
bind a "+moveleft"
bind s "+back"
bind d "+moveright"

bind q "+leanright"
bind e "+leanleft"
bind v "+prone"

Not one script controls my movements cause it is stupid to rely on a script to help you move in any way.

However, scripting to create a spawntimer takes a little bit of ingenuity and effort, but not out of bounds. Even scripting to change cg_fov and sensitivity are quite simple and it is encouraged to use in W:ET since long range and short range shooting happens quite frequently.

Here is a simple and basic toggle script used to keep open the command map in ET (useful when trying to spot mortars hits):

set mapout "+mapexpand; set naechste-map vstr mapin"
set mapin "-mapexpand; set naechste-map vstr mapout"
set naechste-map "vstr mapout"
bind n "vstr naechste-map"

Spawn point scripts are important, especially in competition. If you need to fallback before a respawn happens, you need to be able to change your spawnpoint fast, and /kill in time. Using that cumbersome limbo menu is a joke.

None of the scripting is extreme, but people need to take time to learn the basics rather than lash out at others for being creative.

# About tweaking Cvars
----------------------------
The manufacturers of the games give some cvars the ability to change on the fly, others require video restarts (vid_restart), and some are cheat protected. In ET, like Radea said, tweaking graphics are only really helpful in reducing eye strain. I hate playing on maps like Railgun, Fueldump, et_ice, etc that have bright white snow as is while my r_intensity and r_mapoverbrightbits are maxed out to league limitations. It's just not good on the vision when playing these games to strain your vision; you will get a headache very easily in ET if you play with a bright config. The cool thing about ETPro is that you have autoexec_mapname.cfg files that the user must create. In these files you can have changes in the brightness type of cvars (of course you can change other cvars too, but brightness is usually paramount in this case). A simple bind to do a video restart would make them take effect after a map is loaded.

bind INS "vid_restart"

Some people gain more FPS (frames per second) on low-end graphics cards simply by changing FPS hogging cvars such as r_fastsky (0 by default). r_fastsky -> 1 will make the sky one solid color, usually greyish, and will increase FPS in the game, thereby reducing eye strain due to low FPS gameplay. Of course, r_fastsky being changed will not vastly increase/decrease FPS, but every bit helps. Tweaking multiple cvars will, however, give a significant increase in FPS (r_picmip, r_fastsky, r_drawsun, r_texturemode, r_texturebits, r_mode, even sound related cvars can help but not much).

In RtCW, tweaking can have a factor in visual acquisition, but it can't aim for you. I understand players want their dark maps, high quality textures, etc., but RtCW is one of those games where you have to increase the brightness to be able to even play it. Play RtCW out of the box with only r_gamma changed to 2.0 (default max via bar in menu). It's really dark and ruins the gameplay. Add a bit of brightness, and people can really get into the game and have some really good battles rather than have a dull 'where are you? find you later' type of game.

And tweaking to the extreme is ridiculous. Also, server admins restricting cvars to damn near factor settings will alienate players. Tweaking is a double edged sword; some is ok as long as it's within reason, yet going to the extreme is borderline hax.

#---------------------------

About playing in a league with very few cvar restrictions:

I think OGL for the longest time had the strictest PB settings. Also, QuakeCon has had some restrictive settings. It's not like there hasn't been any limitations placed on the limits to one can change things.

It all comes down to knowing more about your game. You shouldn't assume you know enough, or even more. You should keep learning if you want to 'even the playing field' instead of refraining from change or experimentation. Some people will choose to learn the bare minimum, others as much as possible. Choosing to play 'out of the box' is your decision, but it's only going to hold you back from becoming a better player.

Johann, first of all i'd like to thank you for taking the time to post that info, it was a real " eye - opener " to the " dos and don'ts " in tweaking. The fact you've been open minded enough to look at my request from both sides of the fence only strengthens the points you've made.
What you're really saying is that if i want an " even playing field " during E.T. gaming then i will have to increase my knowledge of the game when it comes to these types of things. In otherwords, you can't really see any hope for getting a league like i have mentioned ? I'm begining to feel that way myself.
I still feel it was worth a go though, i know that there's thousands out there who are like - minded and, unlike some believe, we're not brainless noobs. We just love playing the game the way it used to be in the beginning, playing for fun and not to trying be some kind of " elite gamer type ".
Thanks again Johann for your post and to all the other members who have contributed to my thread in an informative and adult manner.

i have done a lot for the gaming community and worked one on one with many "noob" teams and helped them improve. I do not appreciate your commentary directed at me. Johann's post was quite informative, though you may wish to preface future posts by stating you do not know about tweaking either. I answered the question based on how you phrased it. Cope.

Originally posted by: Johann
but RtCW is one of those games where you have to increase the brightness to be able to even play it. Play RtCW out of the box with only r_gamma changed to 2.0

That kind of thing depends a lot on the system. Which is why trying to set a 'reasonably dark' limit for online competition is hopeless. On Johanns system r_gamma 2 is unpleasantly dark, where on mine it is almost painfully bright.

In other words, the only way to make it fair is to let everyone turn it up to 'painfully bright' if they want. Because if you made it reasonably dark on my system, it would be downright un-playable on some, and still blindingly bright on others.

Originally posted by: GANG$TA
What you're really saying is that if i want an " even playing field " during E.T. gaming then i will have to increase my knowledge of the game when it comes to these types of things. In otherwords, you can't really see any hope for getting a league like i have mentioned ?

As for any game goes, or anything in general, knowing more will give one an edge. In reference to the league, I don't see it happening unless a numerous amount of people suddenly ask for it, or someone just starts it up on their own. There has to be unwavering support for a league to operate from not only those that would create it, but by those that would participate.

Originally posted by: Johann

Originally posted by: GANG$TA
What you're really saying is that if i want an " even playing field " during E.T. gaming then i will have to increase my knowledge of the game when it comes to these types of things. In otherwords, you can't really see any hope for getting a league like i have mentioned ?

As for any game goes, or anything in general, knowing more will give one an edge. In reference to the league, I don't see it happening unless a numerous amount of people suddenly ask for it, or someone just starts it up on their own. There has to be unwavering support for a league to operate from not only those that would create it, but by those that would participate.

Johann, do me a favor please and re-read my initial response. I pretty much said everything that you did, only I used the "let's cut to the point and if you want flowery prose, ask for it next time and I will give it," type of reply. RealP said the same thing.

Here are the facts (for those keeping score)

1.) the playing field is level. the cvar tweaks are known and out there. The tweaks are highly controversial and while you may feel as though some of them give an advantage, some do, though everyone can use them. Period. Your decision to not agree or not use them is your decision. It is not a problem with the league or players "cheating."

2.) there are cvar tweaks that can be exploited for cheating. Period. That is why there are limits. The admins try and test and keep up with exploits. Sometimes a few get by, more often than not, they catch them.

3.) I find it very difficult to believe you've been playing RTCW and now ET for as long as you have and you think this is an unfair advantage. I believe the words you used were "cannon fodder." Well, you are either a.) a total ignoramus b.) really naive or c.) just plain lazy. I have seen et players come in that have a better grasp of cvar tweaking than you do. This knowledge has been out there a long time (and discussed/argued for a long time as Johann pointed out).

The playing field would not be level if things like picmip 4 and mapoverbrightbits 3 were not public knowledge. They are very public knowlegde. There are even places you can go and download the configs of very good players and execute them so you can play exactly as they play (with the exception of someone like s!lo in which case you'd need to be a loser and load a program to shoot for you). So your arguement is dumb. Period.

I tried to explain that point to you. Apparently if someone does not readily kiss your ass and pander to your ignorance, they are arrogant. Well, I spend the bulk of my day dealing with ignorant "l33t" players. Frankly, if you need help tweaking your game, hit me up at zooey007@hotmail.com or xfire ev1l666. beyond that, you will not get a league you want unless you start it yourself. and yes, those players that own tweaked will own you not tweaked as well (unless your name is s!lo in which case you should kill yourself).

Frankly, the bottom line, after reading Johann's post and your response is, you really need to learn a few things and stop being dumb about things. You may not like to hear that, but in the 80s, tough love was a popular movement.

I taught a 4 year old girl to play (she's now 7) and a 5 year old boy to play. That 7 year old girl would kick the shit out of most of the players in ET. And that, much to your chagrin is a fact. And before you start bringing the word "adult" into things, I am 34 years old. And I do alot for gamers, so get your facts straight please.

And if you still need help, you now have my addresses.

EDIT: I just looked at your profile. No teams. Mmmmm...k.
Post edited by |Ev1L| at 12/28/2004 10:45:13 PM

That's why i wanted a poll Johann, to see if anyone would be interested in this kind of league. The more i look into it though the more i see it as being a bit on the " mission impossible " side if things ! Like some of the guys have said, everyones' comp is different, different specs, screen size and so on.
Our problems/dislikes with the game stem more from comming across these " invincible medics " that can run like a gazelle and jump like a kangaroo, take a panzer in the face and survive and can kill you from 3 hundred yards away with a luger !!!
Thanks again for all your input Johann, i think i need a medic now after posting this topic here and also Planet Wolfenstein .

Too be totally honest (which has gotten people pissed off b4 ) I dont think you would get enough interest to keep this alive. With all the sites, and forums that give out config help, why would anyone want to hold back?? And as some people have already mentioned, i just got a new computer and with out tweaking settings or anthing, I get about a royal 3 fps. So u try to play the game, "out of the box" with a machine like mine. Fuck That.
Post edited by Jerry~ at 12/29/2004 3:23:33 PM

Originally posted by: GANG$TA
That's why i wanted a poll Johann, to see if anyone would be interested in this kind of league. The more i look into it though the more i see it as being a bit on the " mission impossible " side if things ! Like some of the guys have said, everyones' comp is different, different specs, screen size and so on.
Our problems/dislikes with the game stem more from comming across these " invincible medics " that can run like a gazelle and jump like a kangaroo, take a panzer in the face and survive and can kill you from 3 hundred yards away with a luger !!!
Thanks again for all your input Johann, i think i need a medic now after posting this topic here and also Planet Wolfenstein .

I am not a pro of tweaking/scripting, but i can't think of any kind of config that would let you take a panzer to the face unless you're on a shrubxpsave with flackjacket, adrenaline etc.

I have a pretty nice config, I can hardly play without it anymore, but not so much the video stuff, its the key layout for me. I guess the question is where do you draw the line on what is allowed and what is not. Can i bind control to weaponbank 5? Is mouse2 for crouch ok? can i even use my mouse 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and 8? Since some people only have 2 buttons?

Then there is the fps/playability factor. One time I forgot about a match, and had to play from my friends house, now his computer is a little older than the average gamers, but basically i took stock ET, rebound the keys the way i liked them, and played an hour of railgun WITH NINE FRAMES PER SECOND. do a /com_maxfps 9 and play for a little while, then before you slit your wrists, think of how much a little FPS boost helps.

Besides the keyboard/mouse layout in my config, the next most important part for me is the video settings, nto because of FPS (for my computer) but because it becomes very hard to see people who can clearly see me. Most people I play with started investigating configs for this very reason, its no fun getting killed repeatedly by someone you cannont see, but you know they can see you.

Next most important thing for me, is scripts, i mainly use a class, spawn, and fov script. I don't consider these cheating at all, but i know some do. The limbo menu is cumbersone to use, if i hear dyno planted on battery with 3 seconds left, there is no way i could go into limbo, pick the back spawn, change to eng, and then killing myself. But i can do it now by simply hitting page down, f11, and mouse5. There i now am gonna spawn as an eng in the back with a chance to defuse. I guess i'm a cheater.

Lmao Jerry ! Yeah, i know what your saying m8. We're just a group of guys who are maybe just a bit too sentimental about how wolfie " used to be " and hoped that they're would be enough support from folk like us to get something going. You're right though, i can't see anything happening right now, in the future who knows, maybe more will look back and say " This ain't how the game was back at the start, it sucks !!! " .
Ah well, i'm of to get my " non-tweaked " ass kicked by Super Medic online . Thanks anyway guys.

its not how 'wolf used to be', the game always was tweakable.

In RtCW and ET, blasts from artillary/airstrikes, grenades, panzers, riflenades, satchels, mortars, etc. will not go around corners at 90° and will do less damage when corners are greater than 90°.

_| <---90°

The blasts from those mentioned above will go out radially in all directions. When their blast radius is exceeded, no damage is given. When within their blast radius, damage is variable. One could be killed and not gibbed, depending on how far within this blast radius one is at the time of the blast. The closer one is to the radius point of a blast, the better the chances are of dying and being gibbed by the blast.

If you were to drop a grenade on the steps on a map like mp_beach or goldrush, you could stand back but still be within the blast radius and not be hurt at all since the steps are at 90° and the blast won't come up at you; it won't go through the steps. This principle goes for all of the weapons in both games that use a blast as it's method of attack.

Basically, if you are in a position that allows no line of sight to the blast, you won't be hurt by it assuming you are in the blast radius. However, if you are in the blast radius of say an artillary or airstrike blast and are in doors, and said blast hits outside the doorway, thereby allowing a line of sight, the blast will have an effect and usually causes most of us to say 'wtf' now and then. It doesn't take much since airstrikes/artillary are quite powerful in terms of damage given.

This is another example of knowing how your game works. You will also notice some models and brushes allow some things to pass through them, and others may allow nothing at all, or everything. A good example of brushes allowing things to pass are the wireframe textures on mp_chateau in the foyer that are part of the railing and the fencing on mp_base at radar 1 area. On mp_chateau, one can shoot bullets and panzers through the fencing, but it may not allow grenades (can't say i tried tossing a nade through). On mp_base, bullets may pass through the wire fencing, but panzers & nades can't. However, blasts from both will be unimpeded and will do immediate damage.

You can say the example in mp_chateau is due to bad map editing/creation, and the example on mp_base due to mapper's intent. Either way, one that knows their game very well and how the maps 'play' will have a mental edge on whoever doesn't. Before you accuse the medic for hacking, keep the above explanations in mind. If you panzer near that med, he may not receive the entire force of the blast due to his vacinity to the blast radius and the brushes that lay in between. It doesn't also help that a med can level up and have 156 HP (max) and run away medpack whoring after being taken down to about 20ish or less HP. Also, one who shoots a panzer can expect a delay between changing weapons. This makes the panzerwhore vulnerable at which point a med can easily drill a few headshots into the panzerwhore and make him say 'WTF!? you haxor!'
Post edited by Johann at 12/29/2004 5:21:50 PM

Gang$sta,

You would need two things before we would consider going any further with this:

1> At least 20-30 teams interested in playing with a "stock" ET config.

2> A complete, server side config with your proposed cvar restrictions.
Skeeve
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