Retail Ladder Questions

I have put many hours into playing Retail RvS thus far. I have a good feeling of what most players would like to see as far as maps are concerned on the ladder. I also have heard many desires to restrict CMAGS and the Thermal Scope.

Since this is a ladder that caters to the communities desire, I would like some input here as to what you, the community wants.

Why do we want to restrict stuff that came with the game, especially if everyone can use it?

Some feel that the CMAGs ruin the balance of the game. In some cases you never would have to reload.

The thermal scope in certain cases works like a wall hack as you can see through items with it.

This is the purpose of polling the RvS community to see what they would like to see the ladder constructed around.

I played with CMAGs and I have mixed feelings about it. It doesn't take many bullets to kill, nor does it take very long to reload, I can hardly imagine a situation where you would be in a firefight long enough to have to reload...






]CkB[TySoft Community Development Manager

Personally, I think restricting any part of the game that came with the game is a mistake. We're not talking exploits or hacks anymore, they came standard with the retail version.

Again, like the G36 demo glitch that wasn't restricted on the ladder, if everyone can use it, why restrict it?

Actually I take that back, today I just died a few times because i had to reload!#






]CkB[TySoft Community Development Manager

Excellent points so far. This is why I like to have these productive community discussion threads.

CMAGS should go. The weight tends to make a weapon more accurate. Some weapons become SUPER accurate that way.
|HiFi|TotalCarnage
TeamWarfare Commissioner
RadioHiFi

You can't see through all walls with thermal scope, plus no one with a sniper rifle will be going around zoomed in. I think it should not be restricted. A lot of match games won't have snipers. But for those souls that are good enough at it, they should be able to use the advantages of seeing through smoke. The thermals balance out the visibility issue there, because the team that threw the smoke may know where you are, and then the enemy can find them using thermals.

Haha, if I confused you, I'm sorry. I'm really tired and tend to ramble on and confuse people
Post edited by Rubber Duckie at 3/23/2003 12:22:17 AM

I dont think there should be any weapon restrictions. CMAGs are good. I experianced a squad on the cinci servers that simply put on c mags and id run to them from hearing it for like 4 straight rooms. But I quikly learned how to defeat that shit and we ended up killing them

I think it should only be team survival tho

well.., first if there isn't any hacks in the retail then why should there be restrictions?...

the programmers pretty much made the game even with use of any iteam so do wtv you want but jeep in mind that the game is the game

I suggest creating certain ladders with many differant trades such as; restrictions kits, lvls, game type etc...
http://www.tjlau.com/favpics/undead-1024x.jpg

I think people overestimate the advantages CMAGS offer. Like previously said, it doesnt take many bullets to kill, nor does it take very long to reload. CMAG's basically turn your gun into an RPD, making it hard to kill people on the run. Which would you rather have, the ability to hit on the run or not have to take an extra second to reload?

I think this is more an issue with guns that have an integral scope. Effectively they have two attachments. It kind of imbalances the guns. More of a game design issue than anything else. In the real world I can have both a scope and a CMAG on any gun that can have either one alone.

However, IMHO, forcing people to stop, fallback and reload (ammo management in general) makes the fighting a bit more complex and adds a tiny bit of depth.

I tried the Thermal scope once. Didn't seem effective at seeing through walls, but I could have been trying to see through too many walls at once.

OK look! As an official standpoint from =DLR=, Why restrict items that come with the game? 1. Cmags do not enhance your abilities what so ever, I can kill just as ease with the standard ol 6mags than with the cmag. 2. thermal scope is avaliable to all that play so it doesnt pose an advantage to anyone. We think that it would be a disgrace to the game to restrict these options

!


sig too large.

I would like to see CMAGs restricted - by doing this more guns will be used, not just the ones with built in scope. Breaking a camp is hard enough when you know the occupant will have to reload - if he doesnt have to ...

The thermal scope is OK for someone on the team to be designated as sniper - the lag of CMAGs would mean this designated sniper would not then have the ability to carry a 100 rd micro-uzi as well.

As for ladder types - some of the maps (meat for example) are just huge - the thought of a 5 minute hunt around to find one camper just sends shivers down my spine - we saw how long some of the OTT games lasted! With Objectives enabled - the play focuses in certain areas - thereby eliminating this to a certain point. At least the camping around objectives seems to have a purpose - rather than lying in some far-flung room out of the way.

Special Forces units like Rainbow usually have a precise aim when they enter a building, like hostage or pilot rescue. These games, in my experience so far - play quicker and are more enjoyable than people randomly running in circles around the map looking for each other.

The trouble with objectives is that it is harder for one team than the other normally. This causes a balance issue for the match.

So maybe several ladders to cater for the team survivalists and the objective types. Maybe the game type could be chosen at random or perhaps the defending clan could choose.

Whatever is decided - m0neY will be there in force - Raven Shield rocks!

One thing that does concern me is a couple (not all) of the explosive barrels in the new Import Export. Entering the dock warehouse from green spawn, there's an explosive barrel that you can't shoot quickly without injuring yourself. So if you enter that warehouse from green you have to use a frag to blow it, so it isn't used against you. That takes time and telegraphs the fact you're coming that route. Its easier for red to destroy its barrel without injury or loss of time. In general I don't like telegraphing your route by having to blow the barrels. But the barrel from Green entrance may imbalance the map.

My vote is for C-MAGS out, spray 'n pray is a reality with the C-MAGS, rets at full bloom wasting the entire C-MAG on a single man, doesn't sound like a high skill, highly trained group such as rainbow six.

Thermal Scopes should stay, they are used sparingly as far as I have seen because you give up your primary weapon just for that thermal and there arn't a great many maps were it's all that useful.

I'd like to see a ladder with something other than teamsurvival. The one most popular "alternative" gamemode would do great I think. I see many people playing bomb and enjoying it, and I see a good following for pilot. I just want to see if we can get away from total killing and get some objective in there.

Well i hear all this talk about "ladders".Is it true there will be a 5v5 or 6v6 league,set to one night a week?

As for cheats...(I play in rtcw leagues,and dont know if this could even be done) Rtcw has a anti cheat called Punkbuster.Could that easily be introduced to Raven Shield???

Also in obj matches,(Gonna refur to Rtcw again,cuz its all I know )Rtcw has a Stopwatch Mod,which keeps track of team's times,Swapping teams and balances it out.Now im sure that one of u geniuses Could whip up something like that in no time

As of banning any weapons...We should play with them All at first...If then 1 or 2 things Really effect the game then mb adjust.Just some thoughts...


Thx [*;DrSkunkbud
"only the dead have seen the end of war"

Originally posted by: DrSkunkbud

Well i hear all this talk about "ladders".Is it true there will be a 5v5 or 6v6 league,set to one night a week?

yes, this rule discussion applies to that as well.






]CkB[TySoft Community Development Manager

My vote is for CMAGS and the Thermal to stay. Anyone can use them, so it is no advantage. Doesn't seem that complicated to me.

Now which maps to use could be a bit more difficult. What are you thinking about this one Wizard? I would prefer just using the smaller maps, so games don't take all night...

In the case of PunkBuster, Ubi Soft would have to release source codes for it's game (and possibly pay them?) to create a PunkBuster program for that.

As far as I know, PunkBuster has bypasses, but they update it often enough so that it isn't really much of a problem.

If anyone else has info on that, keep Frosty informed!

also, punkbuster is currently only for quake 3 engined games (sof2 and rtcw), havnt seen it for any unreal warfare games yet.


]CkB[TySoft
Teamwarfare Community Development Manager

Okay, CMAGS might promote some spray and pray strats for some of the lesser players. This by no means, evens the playing field between them and the better players. A smart player can easilly end the round for the lesser player, but being strategic and picking off said s-n-p'er.

My god, CMAGS may actually expand the interest in this game to where we might have a really active ladder. *shocked look* WOW! What would we do then?

I personally dont see how CMAGS are going to promote people playing the game. Ive never looked at what kits were in a game before I bought it. I just hate to see companies dumb down a game. How many times have you shot a clip but saved 4 or 5 bullets just waiting to hear that lovely sound of someone reloading? Its almost orgasmic (hey Im married). I wouldnt mind them really if they functioned like they really do and overheat the gun, jam up and such. There is no negative for using the item. To me every kit item needs to have a plus and positive associated with it. Use a silencer and you weaken your gun, use a scope and loose peripheral vision, use cmags and....blaze away.

I'm no pro on this, but The Game as shipped is the game we are falling in love with, having fun at and if we are going to compete then that is the game we should play. Even with all of it's issues the CMAGs and thermal scopes are part of life. Play with them STOCK for two months then revise the rules based on the out cry of the community. If there are issues they will surface during match play. And you will hear the complaints.

PLEASE HAVE A RULE WHERE YOU CAN'T USE THE NOOB GUNS. SUCH AS "ALL SHOTGUNS" and "G36K".

Don't take anything away from game. Let people learn to be more skillful when dealing with opponents that use cmags or thermal scopes instead of taking them away.


Post edited by Narotic at 3/23/2003 6:05:29 PM




|HFH|Narotic

I say everything should be open to use. You restrict one thing, then somebody will argue to restrict something else. Lets just play it as is....



|HiFi|Dark Star

Thats what I used to say. I loved the challenge. But the thermal vision is just to far.

Originally posted by: StevieGuy9

PLEASE HAVE A RULE WHERE YOU CAN'T USE THE NOOB GUNS. SUCH AS "ALL SHOTGUNS" and "G36K".

Ok, now i have a question. Define n00b guns. All of the weapons in this game are based upon firearms that actually exist. Dont call something a "n00b gun" because someone used it to kill you. Why do you consider shotguns and the G36K "n00b guns"? Every weapon should be allowed. Do you think a real counter-terrorism squad would say, "Thats not fair, the terrorists had shotguns, theyre n00b guns, they cheated"? Too me that sounds stupid. The firearms in this game a fairly well balanced. (They even sacrificed "historical accuracy" for being balanced [ex. the FN P90, is much more accurate in the RW})

HAHA. What makes you think if someone "kills" me I call them "noob". I get killed with the TAR, Sniper Rifle, or MP5 and I don't consider then a "noob" gun. Just be quiet, you have no idea what you are talking about.

consider them*

And what are you some wanna be ghetto gangster? "masta"??

Well, thats it. I said what I thought for the rules. TWL will do the right thing, my idea or not. Keep up the great work!

1. if u choose a CMAG u give up something, for my machine gun I can choose scope or CMAG. I choose the scope, the cmag would do me more harm. "spray n' pray" Ha... you will get owned by teams if you do that. There is a lot of skill in this game and ANYTHING can be beaten.

2. "nppb" weapons... stfu there is no such thing, some weapons are more desirable on certain maps, you got to learn to use all the weapons and choose the right one to suit your needs.

3. Thermal scope... you take this away, you take away a big part of the game. U can see people through certain things, why? B/c of the heat, same thing with the heartbeat sensor u going to take that away too? You will ruin the game if you start taking away things.

4. Back to CMAGs - the only cmag i use is on my pistol. My pistol it my back up weapon - if i am pinned down and surrounded i will go out with a fire fight hoping to wound some people... this is a strategy and if u take away CMAGs you take away from the game.

5. Leave the game the way it is. Every weapon, and option has it upsides and downsides. And if you start to restrict things you will RUIN the game. If it is in the game ANYONE can use it. Its no like one side gets it, this is totally FAIR and EVEN. Right now this game takes skill and teamwork, if you start to take away items from the game you start to filter our the skill.

Gameplay on Ladders - I would love to see a PILOT ladder, when I played it I was the pilot and i didn't know what the f*** was going on. I was like "where the hell is my main weapon." After I played it for awhile i was hooked. The only way to win that is with teamwork, and keen skill. This was just awesome. Keep Hostage and Bomb, each requires different type of strategys. And of course you need your full on blood bath of team adversarial.

TWL I ask you this. Do not take away from the game, that which makes it such a great game!

keep cmags
lose the thermal scope

Could I suggest a Euro ladder aswell.

Regarding the weapon loadout I think everything should be allowed by default. You can always create a second ladder with limited weapons/gadgets.

Here are my views take them as you wish...

C-mags - Many of the c-mags are fine, for the pistols and most of the SMGs, /BUT/ the c-mags for guns like the G36K, Enfield L85A1, Steyr AUG, MP5 series, as well as some others are rediculus. If you want a machine gun in this game you can't have c-mags. Explain the point of an M60 when you can get an L85A1 with 100 rounds that is nearly pinpoint accurate and has a scope! The only thing the Machine Guns had going was outragrous clips. Take that away and they might as well be big dildos you beat people with. And for all of you that say "I use the M60! Its awesome!" Well you can't tell me that the M60 (or any machine gun.. maybe one with 200 rounds but wtf does it matter when you got 100!) is better than an AUG with c-mags. They ruin the feel of the game.

Thermal. As for thermal I see no outrageous advantage, its not easy being zoomed in looking everywhere and it can only see through a few servaces. Although I haven't used them that much and can't give a complete opinion from what I see there is no problem with them.

Originally posted by: ·|ÐöðM|·olord

5. Leave the game the way it is. Every weapon, and option has it upsides and downsides. And if you start to restrict things you will RUIN the game. If it is in the game ANYONE can use it. Its no like one side gets it, this is totally FAIR and EVEN. Right now this game takes skill and teamwork, if you start to take away items from the game you start to filter our the skill.

Oh and |DOOM|olord there is not a soul on this earth that con prove that an Enfield L85A1 does not have an advantage with c-mags over nearly every rifle and machine gun. If you do keep c-mags you know what you'd see in matches.. L85A1's G36K's or AUG's with c-mags almost religiously... "Ohhh I wouldn't!" that may be true but many many others would. I don't know what people will stick to I'm guessing the L85A1 but I gaurentee you will see matches where a whole team has one with c-mags... They are too overpowered with them. If you want, keep them. I know it will happen people on line are too predictable. As for the "Right now this game takes skill and teamwork, if you start to take away items from the game you start to filter our the skill." How can taking away a 100 round magazine filtering out skill! Its alot more skillful using a 30 round clip!

Edit - I also read from General that he waits for the sound of the reload. Hell me too! It exciting when your in a firefight like that. You have to be sparring with your shots cause you know how dangerous reloading can be. 100 rounds... Well that'll never happen unless the guy is blind!
Post edited by 101st|Psycho at 3/24/2003 8:43:17 AM

I think the pray 'n' spray complaints are coming from the fact some people are getting picked off more easily than they are use to. This probably has more to do with some of the new weapons and not CMAGs. But CMags are getting the blame. Hopefully it is the new weapons and it isn't cheats

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