I'm interested in working on anti-hack programs for 1942.
Anyone who is working on a project against hacking for 1942 should submit a synopsis of their project under this thread. Perhaps we can pull our efforts and put an end to this cheating ASAP.
I have written a program that automatically captures the minimap while playing BF. It would be easy to convert this into a client and auto-upload the minimap.jpg's to a website.. and the teams may review them after the match. Of course we can do some random shots of the center of the screen occasionally to check for anti-fog and name-tag hacks.
sounds awesome... let's get this program going, i will offer a host to download it if need be! i'd like to help out with programming but i have no skills with coding. good luck with your efforst and =|WAR|= appreciates your time!
According to the linux server-dev mailing list, Dice is currently looking into various techniques to eliminate memory cheats. (Andreas said this)
That is GREAT news as far as I am concerned... Now let's hope they actually get something useful out relatively soon... -----------------
[uNF] & s[Ars]
Looking into and doing are two different things, they haven't even given us a way of generating CRCs to use custom maps with Pure yet.
The only way to combat memory cheats that I know of would be a client side program that reports modifications to processes in memory back to the server.
CSHP did this for UT somewhat successfully (it caused noticable server lag in its early stages), if you wanna take a look at it, the source for their earlier version prior to UT2003 has been released.
Good idea, I have some ftp space available also if needed and a server we can test this on when its ready. By mature gamers, for mature gamers
http://www.gunmen.us
I have a server to contribute too. Regular BF hasnt been so bad for me because I play CLan servers only. However the good "unpure" mods like EOD and DC are plauged with pond scum and could never be used for good competetions.
What we're really looking for are people who are currently in the making of an anti-cheat program. Our solution is for clan matches only, so we need a solution that will work for the entire BF community. Post edited by {CTF} Beurling at 9/29/2003 3:11:09 PM
I for one like Talon's idea for the Jpegs taken mid game. It would be a little work to look at them but not enough to be labourious. I wanna see it and the diference it makes in some peoples style. Roll up your pants.
that sounds kinda like punkbuster with the force ss in cs. back when we used to use it when i admined servers it was great caught alot of ppl i never would of suspected with all kinds of crazy stuff in there ss. even a few with the hack menu down at the moment the ss was taken. lost alot of friends when i found there ss.
its a great idea and if u need some one to isntall to test it i will be more then happy to let u get some ss off me for the hopes of better gaming. if u need more ppl i can ask round in hk see if any others wanna be guinnie pigs too.
I would like to see some screen shots posted somewhere so people who don't cheat, have never cheated, and never will, can see exactly what cheaters see when they cheat.
This solution sounds like the previous attempt Octinium but that was abandoned due to some issue with 'borrowing' licensed code. The idea was great but died and was never heard from again. I wish you the best because any anti-cheat tool like should be supported and welcome in the community.
Not to Ruin, or inturupt ur guys Forum (post) But Talon, wouldnt taking screenies before the match to check for no fog work? I mean, could they not just turn it off, and on after the screenie? Just a Suggestion/question.
Originally posted by: Socem Not to Ruin, or inturupt ur guys Forum (post) But Talon, wouldnt taking screenies before the match to check for no fog work? I mean, could they not just turn it off, and on after the screenie? Just a Suggestion/question.
I don't believe they are talking about taking a beginning of match screen shot. They are talking about taking random screenshots throughout the match similiar to what a demo would do. A person would have no control over when the screen shots would be taken therefore the liklyhood of catching someone with incrimination evidence on their screen increases the more they play.
OK, i've got the program taking screens of the minimap and a section of the center of the screen to check for Fog & Nametag hacks.
The question is... how often and how many screenshots should we take.
I'm thinking of taking a minimap screenshot at random intervals 6 times a minute, and central sections 1 times a minute. In a 30 minute match, this would create approximately 2mb worth of screens at 1024x768.
There will be some sort of security to verify that the screenshots taken during the match arn't substituted for "virgin" screens.
Then each player will check an opposing players screens via a web page after the match.
It's all about experience guys. The more you play this game, the more you can predict what people are going to do. Like buc said, if you pay attention to the people you are playing and see what they do, you can pretty much count on them doing the same thing over and over again.
People who change the way they play all the time are the hardest people to play against. I've seen engi's in matches covering the flag that will go in the same building every single time to hide out. Not a smart move on their part. Cause once you see that person in that building, that will be the first building I check to take out an engi. If he's not in there, I'll check other buildings. But 9 times out of 10, he will most likely be in the building I saw him use most of the time. However, the engi's that go to a different place everytime are hard as hell to deal with.
When were playing a match, we use TS. And I certainly use TS to it's fullest extend. I will tell people where to go, what to look for, etc. So if an engi keeps ex-packing our members as they go for the flag, I will dedicate a few people to recon and see where this guy is going. Not just go in their base and find him, but look for him from a distance.
In war, information is everything. When I was in the Marine Corps, information was the most important thing to have in order to win a battle. If you have tight communication and keep everyone up to date on enemy movement, there's no stopping you.
Maybe the CTF clan should talk to demise, 20ID, warchild, D2D, and other clans that have successfully built their individual skills, teamwork skills, and communication skills on TS and find out how dominating it can be.
When I play in a match or even in a pub, I am continuously bringing up my mini-map to see where my teammates are, and also bring up the name list all the time to see what the enemy members classes are and if there dead or alive. I try to continuously gather as much information as possible all throughout the match. I also communicate all the time on TS with my members and ask them whats going on, where are you, do you see any enemies, etc. This information is priceless during war. In real war and in gaming.
Maybe the CTF clan should re-evaluate how they play this game. Take a look at how you structure your strats, look at how you group squads together, and also take a look as how you use TS. We've gone through alot of ups and downs with our overall game play and have changed things as we've gotten more experience. How we play the game today is certainly not how we played 6 months ago.
All i can say is CTF is really beating a dead horse here. The fact that they do not have any solid proof that anyone was cheating and also the fact that they admitted to using hacks themselves does not go over well and does not help them in their fight to elimiate cheats, whomever is using them.
But I can promise you this, the members of Northern Brigade care very much for the clan and it's reputation. And all of the members are not in Northern Brigade just to play a game. They are here because we have all become friends and really enjoy talking and playing games with eachother (don't even say it, LOL).
It's a shame that it has come to this. However, I have been involved in on-line gaming long enough to know that this kind of stuff will happen. All we can do is deal with it and move on. But I can promise you this, Northern Brigade will always be here and will always look forward to growing relationships with other clans in order to make this game what dice intended it to be, fun to play.
One thing that bothers me about this is in our match, I asked Talon if he could tell me who on my team was cheating. He said "Almost all of them". However, it seems to me that the only person their really trying to go after is Buclem. Where is the proof on all the other members that you claimed were cheating.
Look, Buclem is a very skilled pilot. Hell, he's very skilled at any class. I've play with Buclem for close to 4 or 5 years now in gaming. Both him and I started in Codename Eagle. And he was just as dominate in Codename Eagle as he is here. When we jump into pubs on BF, I always ask him to come to the team I'm on cause I can't stand playing against him when he's in the air. He's one hell of a pilot to deal with.
I'm sure the CTF clan is going to continue to say this and that and claim whatever. But the fact remains that they have no proof that anyone from NB was cheating and they have proved that they used hacks. Plane and simple.
I just hope that CTF finally comes to their senses and realized that you cannot just use your opinion to prove something. We all have our opinions, but opinions are a dime a dozen.
I have recently had a very game changing hack brought to my attention in the flesh. As many of you probably already know it allows the user to adjust fog, remove recoil and cone firing. It also allows you to see the Arrow for all your enemies. It's out there and cannot be detected. It's out there and everywhere. For so long we (me) have strived to be the best here in A51, focusing on map, chat and overall unit tactics for months almost over a year now. We have become a tight knit group that have alot of fun playing with each other.
However, cheating is here to stay in the mainstream. And no matter what I say no matter what others say, you cannot prove you are not cheating. I can't you can't, no one can. It's unfortunate that the game has come to this. I've been playing online games for years now and this just seems to be the cycle of Multiplayer. Once hacks become the common place I move on.
It's very hard to not accuse someone of cheating now. And it is really hard for me to give anyone credit for anything anymore. There are people out there that could wipe the floor with some people that cheat I'm not debating that. However, the water has been tainted and there is no purifier here.
If you win you could be cheating, if you lose they could be cheating, that is the reality. That is something that doesnt settle very well for me.
All views and opinions here are my own, no one elses. You have a problem with someone I said take it up with me not with A51.
First Octinium is alive and well, the rumor of "borrowed code" was started on the Counter-Hack page by some of the hackers that visit it and wanted it taken out early. Their codec isn't however ready to go yet, and the last version I checked (a month or two ago) had a hook on it to make it work so beware if you play any HL based games. They are working on it and are looking for testers, drop by #counter-hack and ask for a copy to check out.
Second "it's just a game" is a lame excuse considering the work we put in on this game to play competatively. Letting 14 year old kiddies laugh and tk and cheat their butts off is unacceptable to me. I play for fun but I play hard.
Third there are real cheats out there and all you have to do is watch carefully to spot who is using them. We're not talking people using AA's we're talking people who get long range single shot tank kills on hidden infantry/with terrain in the way, or just happen to know right where you're hiding even tag distances are turned down and there's 20 other spots nearby, and repeat the trick over and over again. They are out there and without a demo or anti-cheating means we are ALL vulnerable. The Punkbuster comments were right on, amazing amounts of crap came out when that screen shot taker was made live. PB by the way is now known as EvenBalance and supplies anti-cheat software to virtually all the Q3A engine based games. There's another utility out there I'm keeping an eye on but it hasn't been updated lately so I don't know where that project is right now.
Four as far as anti-cheating in general goes, Windows is as secure as a collander, so it is a difficult fight, but one that must be fought if you want any of these games to have a future; however Windows is not the OS we need for this, we need to start yelling for Linux clients that are more secure and updated more frequently than Winblows. The better versions (virtually all of which are free) are very close to what we have come to expect from Windows.
Finally if you're serious about this project, by all means pursue it but take it as far as you can; this is not something for the feint of heart, or something gong to make you popular (seems from your comments you're getting heat and a good question to ask is why you are if the guys giving it to you are clean themselves or have something to hide). Don't end up like the guy who runs GameSecurity, taking it 90 percent through then deciding you want to play GTA MP instead.
Originally posted by: [A51g]Drizden However, cheating is here to stay in the mainstream. And no matter what I say no matter what others say, you cannot prove you are not cheating.
I understand where your comin from Drizden. The problem with today's society is we have it backwards. People are guilty until proven innocent. It's a shame but it's true.
It's easier for people to point fingers and say "He said, she said, he did, she did" and excuse themselves from their own responsibility.
The other problem in today's society is most people are followers. They just believe anything anyone tells them. People watch the news and immediately believe whatever they hear. Instead of checking it out for themselves and seeing if what was said is actually true.
Check this out:
There is a powerful craving in most of us to see ourselves as instruments in the hands of others and, thus, free ourselves from responsibility for acts which are prompted by our own questionable inclinations and impulses. Both the strong and the weak grasp at this alibi. The latter hide their malevolence under the virtue of obedience. The strong, too, claim absolution by proclaiming themselves the chosen instruments of a higher power--God, history, fate, nation or humanity.
Similarly, we have more faith in what we imitate whan in what we originate. We cannot derive a sense of absolute certitude from anything which has it's roots in us. The most poignant sense of insecurity comes from standing alone and we are not alone when we imitate. It is thus with most of us; we are what other people say we are. We know ourselves chiefly by hearsay.
I have posted this in our forum a couple of times cause I truely believe it's phylosophy.
Again, I don't hold any grudges towards the CTF clan. Maybe they truely believe that our members cheat. And in their mind, there is no doubt. But the way they went about this was not the best way.
I hope that all of this passes on and we can get back to playing this game and having fun.
Any sufficiently advanced team/individual can be indistinguishable from hackers.
Efficient communication and a fast-thinking in-game strategist can certainly appear to be team radar-hacking. Intelligent players who use precedent, logic, luck, communication from a dead/live teammate, or any combination thereof, to find a hiding enemy can appear to be tag/fog/skin/radar hacking. An MG/flak'er shooting down an enemy aircraft can appear to be fog hacking, if the targeted pilot is not smart enough to alter his trajectory once entering the fog. The same goes for tankers on city maps; with all the buildings forming alleys, the possible locations for an enemy tank in the fog isn't too hard to guess. Good artillery men can & do memorize cloud spots to enable them to strike a target at the beginning of the round; this also appears to be fog hacking.
Myself, I always start with the assumption that my opponent is playing it legit; if he does better than me or my team, I like to figure out how, from a non-hacker's point-of-view. I then work on implementing these legit techniques. Even if my opponent *were* hacking, it wouldn't matter to me. You go high enough on the ladder or far enough into the playoffs, you're going to end up facing a team that is sufficiently skilled enough to give you the same or better level of competition, anyhow. Better to learn to deal with it sooner, rather than later.
Don't misunderstand me, however; I do not condone cheating. From my viewpoint, cheats are the tools of the uninspired and the underachieving; I pity them (the cheaters, not the cheats). Team Warchild | #team-w
"Any sufficiently advanced team/individual can be indistinguishable from hackers." - Gatsu
Any smart cheater can look like a skilled player, but there is a difference: the cheater will screw up and get himself noticed. If you don't think so, load up Half-Life Counter-Strike and watch some league competitions that involved smart cheaters who knew when and when not to use some downloaded skills.
"It's easier for people to point fingers and say "He said, she said, he did, she did" and excuse themselves from their own responsibility." " - Romeo.
If it's got no name displayed, talks "1337" and strafes me specifically three times coming out of different spots at just the moment I step out, it's cheating it's ass off. Other philosophy notwithstanding.
[A51g]Chappy puts TNT on the enemy flag pole so they don't know it's not thiers and when I come in, right before I'm close enough to cap the flag the TNT goes off in my face and he scurries out and returns their flag and steals ours.... that should be concidered cheats
I think you can't really prove your not cheating thats right.. but I don't think thats any reason to throw your hands up and just let cheaters cheat. The screenshots system of the center of the screen and the minimap will help, every little bit helps imo.
I don't know which is worse in bf42, the availability of cheats or the rampant speculative accusations levied by inexperienced clans who would rather believe that they were somehow cheated than accept the fact that there are clans who have a thorough understanding of the maps teamwork and communication. Not to mention that anticipation and occasionally luck can be factors in this game.
I'm looking forward to the development of anti-hack software because not only will it stop any cheating that does occur, but it will also put an end to these witch hunts where a team's reputation is publically challenged with no substantial proof. I agree with gatsu, a team which is communicating well on Teamspeak can be mistaken for a team that is using hacks, especially if the person making the accusations *wants* to believe the other team is hacking.
I don't think it is a coiencidence that the top teams in bf42 are also the teams that have been together and competed and practiced regularly for over a year. Do you have any idea of how frequently some clans scrimmage and practice? I know that during the season my own clan, which is mid-level in terms of competitive success, will usually have 4 scrimmages and 2 matches a week, but we're still relatively new to playing together and we're learning, so we accept defeat when it comes and try to learn from our mistakes. Most of my clan have been playing bf42 since the demo days, but individual skill is less of a factor than the overall chemistry of the team playing together. Couple a heavy practice schedule with the experience of clans like Northern Brigade who have been around since the beginning and you can understand why they are good.
It sucks that there isn't a fullproof way to catch those that do cheat, but it also sucks that the parnoia of cheating has gotten to the point where it is now. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the clans making all these accusations are new to the scene and haven't put in the work to be a good clan yet.
i hope to have this available before the holidays.
as far as i am concerned cheaters who are smart look like skilled players, but yes a lot of the time it is obvious...
i don't so much care about the recoil hacks as i do the minimap hacks, and there are a few clans that obviously use them.
i won't mention maps or anything so people get all defensive, but i don't know how many times i've been running along a really out of the way route to a base and have some guy meet me halfway back lol... lame.
i think 2-3 times per minute minimap along with 1 time per minute center screen would be sufficient.
CTF don't let some of these tards discourage you, if they are against the anti cheat programs it's because they cheat obviously...
good luck and if you need assistance just give me a shout.
i won't mention maps or anything so people get all defensive, but i don't know how many times i've been running along a really out of the way route to a base and have some guy meet me halfway back lol... lame.
I hope that somebody will come up with something. It'll quiet everybody down for a while till somebody learns how to defeat it, then the process will start all over again.
However, I get the feeling that some people here still don't get it. Sure in a Pub the situation DeathWish points out would certainly be suspect. He could've been taken care of by a radio command or a quickly typed team message, or something hinky could've transpired. Conversely, in a match the other team will be using voice comms. Depending on how many are on the other team, there are anywhere from 16 (8v8) to 24 (12v12) "eyes". These players are scattered all over the map. If they are good and you are spotted, rest assured you will be taken care of! HELLO!!! ABSOLUTELY NO HACK NEEDED IN THE SITUATION DEATHWISH DESCRIBES! He got spotted by one of the other team and if they can't get to him in time, they have someone suicide and respawn at the point he's going to. A team player will do anything LEGAL to help his team win, to include Suiciding.
Nothing but respect for =|WAR|=, they handed us our asses several times, however there can be logical and legal explanations for SOME things. Post edited by |NERV|MudBug at 10/8/2003 9:55:17 PM
Your trying to make the community together by making an antihack program when one of your own members hacked for thereself? You may say that only one of your members turned on his hack program to "proove" that they were cheating, but he had it downloaded on his computer before the match. Not unless, your telling me he downloaded it during the match, but who would download a program during a match so i know if you choose that option as your way out i know your lieing. Either way whichever member turned on his hack trying to proove NBrigade cheats, cheats himself. He had it downloaded on his computer before the match and probally used it for any other matches he attended. He most likely had it on during the match.
As long as humans are writing the code, there will ALWAYS be vulnerabilities. With vulnerablilities, there will ALWAYS be someone exploiting them. So in short cheating will ALWAYS be apart of the gaming community, its the amount of the cheaters that will change. With every new program that comes out to find the cheater, there will be twice as many finding a way around it. What I am trying to say is, cheating is here to stay whether you like it or not, whether you condone it or not. It is fruitless to point them out, because proof is hard to come by, unless you have an addmission, but what cheater would admit to it. The best defense to cheating is to become better skilled, so even with a cheat on you can out play them.
Face it there is good and bad, it has always been that way and it will always be that way.
And please dont call cheaters hackers, hax0rs, hax012s, or whatever. They are not even close to being what a true hacker is. Just because you know how to click the start button doesnt make you intelligent on how a computer operates in everyway. A hacker is one who is in search for knowledge, a cracker is one who destroys, and a cheater is just a stupid kid who is worse then a script kiddie.
this is really annoying. everytime someone gets caught cheating everyone else sais, "o that cheating kid." half the time its not a kid, its an adult! accusing children of cheating because you have no one else to pick on is lame.