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3rstdnails.-II-.
TWL Member
03-14-2012 10:37 PM / profile

I have some serious disputes with this UAC software. I have no problem with software that proves I am legit, because I know I am.

I have a serious problem with installing third party software from a foreign company, where the software has the ability to harvest private information. The software's EULA clearly states that the program COULD capture private information and the information could be "hidden" from the public.

First point:
On installation, you are prompted with the EULA stating that the software will capture images of your desktop. This means anything personal on your desktop will be captured. To be fair they state that you can request a removal of a screenshot with private information, but why should an end user have to change their personal preferences to placate to the software?

The software EULA also states that anyone can be flagged as a cheater by the public. So who is to say that the "public" is not an angry contestant bent on revenge. If you are flagged, you will remain flagged until an admin reviews the flag. Does this not mean that you will be forfeit from competing in matches until that point in time?

Again, I state the fact that I have no problem with Anti-Cheat software. There is a right way and a wrong way. To me, this is the wrong way.
Post edited by 3rstdnails.-II-. at 3/14/2012 11:06:33 PM
Sniper-AOM
TWL Member
03-14-2012 11:24 PM / profile

I would have to agree with you nails.
Scratch-DoD-
Anti-Cheat Staff
Anti-Cheat Manager
All Games

03-14-2012 11:46 PM / profile

+1
blip2
Anti-Cheat Staff
Punkbuster/PBBans
Battlefield Series

03-15-2012 06:39 AM / profile

You have a choice not to use it; if you are really that concerned about it - you just won't be able to play in our matches. The benefits of UAC far far outweigh the *potential* downsides. TBH I would be more concerned about running Origin than UAC.
Post edited by blip2 at 3/15/2012 6:40:22 AM
asshat84
TWL Member
03-15-2012 06:57 AM / profile

origin is only going to harvest info to sell you some shit. these eastern block iron curtain asses that made this program will most likely use any information they harvest (hypothetically) to steal from you. i dont trust this program much myself. and hope you dont get a false positive because from what i've seen on these guys forums, their assholes and your fucked.
Post edited by asshat84 at 3/15/2012 6:59:07 AM
_p1_
TWL Member
03-15-2012 12:09 PM / profile

I agree with all above, we are using but we are doing it very very begrudgingly.

I honestly never had a problem with cheats in matches, the community spots hacks quicker than ish and calls them out , Saints anyone? However my experiences I am sure are not shared by everyone, I am all for catching cheats and that's why we are using it but please don't take lightly our concerns.
ShowDaddy.-II-.
TWL Member
03-15-2012 03:34 PM / profile

Gotta say, this really sucks. We REALLY enjoy TWL, always have. We love the order in which it operates and enjoy the competition. We've been here for a LONG time and most of the community is well aware -II- has never had a cheat in it's existance and that is 15 years. Unfortunately, this UAC program has some of my guys going through it with a fine tooth comb and they not only dislike it's functions but where and WHO your personal info is going to. We are 100% all for stomping out cheaters, always have been, but unfortunately this program will not be used by some of my guys. This simply put, we're a team, all or none so if we are forced to use UAC we will regretfully and most likely be pulling out of TWL.
Blues78
Anti-Cheat Staff
Lead Admin
All Games


TWL Contributor
03-15-2012 06:18 PM / profile

My personal experience with UAC

213384 Registered Users Worldwide.

I've never (with admin access) seen a single complaint to justify your concerns.
Two guys run the whole show at UAC, adding detections, answering requests, reviewing screen shots, reading forums and advancing the software.
On numerous occasions I have suggested they up the donations goal to cover software and other costs.
They have refused, sticking to a policy that only server and bandwidth costs should be shouldered by the community in the form of voluntary donations.

That means all their time spent is free and all associated costs over and above the servers comes from their pockets.

Both deXus and shii have been extremely responsive to all our requests. Often they answer a question or address concern within minutes.

The program is effective and we have both prevented and caught players cheating in TWL matches as a result.

I can assure you, I see the data collected and other than the desktop image issue it is only what is required for an effective anti-cheat. You can delete any screen shot that contains sensitive personal information.

My full time job involves bidding work for military projects. I network with the DOD, CCR, WAWF, FedBizOps and other Local, State and Federal agencies. I see no reason to be concerned my private data is at risk by using UAC. In fact the program helps keep your computer free of trojans and other malicious programs by triggering a detection on them as well. Remove the malicious (non-cheat) software and the flag is removed.

I've gotten to know these guys and I both trust and admire them for their contributions to the gaming community. We should be discussing donations rather than suspicion in my opinion.


Post edited by Blues78 at 3/15/2012 6:31:48 PM
Fusion277
TWL Member
03-15-2012 06:49 PM / profile

Well said Blue.
Fiend.-II-.
TWL Member
03-15-2012 08:33 PM / profile

ok so we should just take your word on opening up our systems to this invasion of privacy? dont get me wrong i have np proving im legit.... but at what cost? sorry you might bid government jobs.. thats great im happy you have enough faith in them to open up your system....but its like this we came here to get matches etc..... we can get them without this uncertainty. bottom line is thanks twl but no thanks.
3rstdnails.-II-.
TWL Member
03-15-2012 08:46 PM / profile

I too work with the Government. I see, first hand, DDoS attacks and attempts to access secure information. Your previous statement does nothing but to confirm my fears.

Two staff for almost a quarter of a million users? We are expected to believe they will have 100% accuracy with our information?

Case in point.

Look at what happened to Sony and PSO. That is a multi-billion dollar corporation, and they have issues. It just baffles me that we are expected to install what could be classified as spyware.

I understand and accept the fact that the software has captured many hackers, that is certain. I for one do not trust software that has no affiliation with EA.

If this anti-cheat software is so great, why is it not implemented with companies such as EA?

A little thing called the Privacy Act.
JackBurton[x]
TeamWarfare Vet
03-15-2012 08:53 PM / profile

Originally posted by: 3rst
I have a serious problem with installing third party software from a foreign company, where the software has the ability to harvest private information. The software's EULA clearly states that the program COULD capture private information...


good point. i agree with this and salute how you brought to the attention of everyone.

Originally posted by: Blues
The program is effective and we have both prevented and caught players cheating in TWL matches as a result.


This is good information and I immediately realize that I can remove personal information from my desktop in the name of preventing and/or catching hackers.

3rst, although your intentions are noble and your points are very valid, we can't expect everyone to do everything for us in the PC world.

And, although disturbing, the consequences that you outline can be easily avoided with a little time and organization of your desktop to ensure no information is gleaned from your desktop.

Thanks!
MOJO|ERASER
TeamWarfare Vet
Sooner fan
03-15-2012 08:54 PM / profile

while some may have legit concerns most who complain and complaining becuase they now have a chance to get caught cheating !
JackBurton[x]
TeamWarfare Vet
03-15-2012 08:55 PM / profile

I have a question.

Teams cannot agree to NOT use UAC... correct?
XShades
TWL Member
03-15-2012 08:56 PM / profile

Well said Blue.

I'm donating $10 after I post this and I'm not even playing Bf3 in TWL.

Good legit players should be over the fucking moon that TWL is requiring this. It finally removes suspicion of hacks and lets people just get on with the game. PB and VAC are 100% compromised by all the paid for hacks, the only people they catch are the idiots and the clueless free hack downloaders that don't really care if they are banned.
BUZZKILL .-II-.
TWL Member
03-15-2012 09:08 PM / profile

Funny thing is all y'all lemmings think this will be any diff. than PB or the others ?

I don't usualy post but this, like all other swallow the coolaid ideas, usually ends up with well intentioned people getting destroyed by those with a piture of fresh iced death.

No thanks, Y'all can have my cup.
Blues78
Anti-Cheat Staff
Lead Admin
All Games


TWL Contributor
03-15-2012 09:12 PM / profile

UAC is required, teams may not agree to dump it for any match.

As Blip pointed out, the option is yours.
Use UAC where required or don't play here.

A bit harsh sounding but we have to be Fair and Consistent with all teams.
Post edited by Blues78 at 3/15/2012 9:14:58 PM
3rstdnails.-II-.
TWL Member
03-15-2012 09:47 PM / profile

Again, I have no problem with the Anti-Cheat part of the application. That is 100% A-OK. I have a problem with the fact that the application is intelligent enough to find "viruses". This means that it is also intelligent enough to monitor network activity, processes (have no problem with that), and possibly system files (I have a huge problem with that.)

Yes, we can move our files off of our desktops, true. The scary part is that that is just one phase of a much larger data mining application. Just because it says it's looking for certain information, does not mean it isn't looking for other information.(private information)

This means that some where on the great wide internet, some one has a log of everything on your PERSONAL computer.

Another thing I have a huge problem with is the fact that you are not allowed to block any advertisement provided by them. According to the EULA, it is a bannable offence to block an advert from UAC.

Who are they to impose advertisements? ( Just like ad ware )

I for one feel if people will understand what is going on behind the scenes they will see that they are indeed in danger.

I prefer not to be "Just another Bison" and run of the cliff because I was forced to.
Post edited by 3rstdnails.-II-. at 3/15/2012 9:49:03 PM
LaserSights
TWL Member
03-15-2012 11:48 PM / profile

When XAC Xray Anti-Cheat was being used here at TWL there was issues about XAC taking screenshots of desktops revealing usernames and passwords. The problem was said to be solved by just how you start and use XAC (if you start up your game, xfire and teamspeak before XAC then you can avoid screenshots of your login info). It sucks XAC is down and not used anymore. I used XAC just for playing in public servers.

As for anti-cheat software, generally speaking about my use of anti-cheats. You will never know what exactly it does unless you are the programmer of the anti-cheat software. If people know what exactly anti-cheat software does then people will know how exactly to avoid being caught by anti-cheat software. I been gaming on pc for 12 years and longer on consoles. It is usually either you use the anti-cheat required or don't use it and whatever comes with that you just have to deal with it such as play in TWL or other competition sites.

I'm waiting on a Windows 7 OS to finally play BF3 and if UAC sucks then unfortunately I will have to play some place else. I hope everything works out for me with UAC and BF3 and Windows 7. I have to deal with the possibility that Windows 7 sucks giant balls.

Fiend.-II-.
TWL Member
03-16-2012 12:02 AM / profile

we have a 15 year spotless record of being a no cheat squad we dont support them... we dont like them... and have been fighting them for our 15 year existance.... we will be leaving twl due to our concerns... you folks are free to think what you want... but 3rstd has lined out the concerns which are not just opinions they are supported facts by uac's eula.... we are up for a good anticheat.....but this isnt it in our eyes. thanks for the fun and good luck!
Blues78
Anti-Cheat Staff
Lead Admin
All Games


TWL Contributor
03-16-2012 06:18 AM / profile

I suppose by your standards we should not support PunkBuster either? Where would online gaming be without these valuable tools designed solely for the purpose of combating cheating? I've taken the liberty of highlighting the part I found to be the most compelling, at least for me.

EULA Details

In PunkBuster's EULA, PunkBuster notes they may be considered invasive, and that they reserve the right to inspect someone's entire harddrive and all of their files: "Licensee understands and agrees that the information that may be inspected and reported by PunkBuster software includes, but is not limited to, Licensee's Internet Protocol Address, devices and any files residing on the hard-drive and in the memory of the computer on which PunkBuster software is installed." "Further, Licensee consents to allow PunkBuster software to transfer actual screenshots taken of Licensee's computer during the operation of PunkBuster software for possible publication." "Licensee agrees that any harm or lack of privacy resulting from the installation and use of PunkBuster software is not as valuable to Licensee as the potential ability to play interactive online games with the benefits afforded by using PunkBuster software."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PunkBuster

I agree with you, I do not like the potential for harm but I enjoy online gaming too much. I know that anti-cheat programs (thanks to all the hackers out there) have been proven to be necessary in order to ensure some reasonable measure of fun and balanced online competition.

We'd like you to reconsider leaving TWL, hoping you will stay however a persons computer and privacy are very personal issues and ultimately the decision is yours to make. My recommendation would be to build a gaming system and keep the sensitive data on a secondary machine.
Post edited by Blues78 at 3/16/2012 7:09:28 AM
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